Spinoff: A frum family needs two incomes?

amother

Orchid

Fri, Nov 15 2019, 10:19 am

amother [ Salmon ] wrote:

Personally I’m not looking to be rich.
I’m looking to pay my norgage, tuition, and save for future and retirement.
We need 200k for our current family size.
That is my goal now.
Many degrees even in a 2 income home will not earn that (where I live out of ny).
My DH and I both work hard and earn just above that.
I’m not saying it’s an easy path to just making it. But I don’t see a degree getting you there better.

And for many it will get you there. We give our kids tools to prepare for life because we don't know what path will be working out for them. We don't know if opening your own business will succeed (the percentages are against that), or you'll find a lucrative position in someone else's business. Why shouldn't our kids be granted the opportunity to have another avenue open to them?

I'm not saying everyone should be forced to earn a degree. I'm saying that we need to provide the opportunity for our kids to earn one for those who want to prepare ahead for a future unknown. It will come into use for many of them, sometimes even 30 years down the road. A family member of mine ran his own business for 30 years. It failed when he was in his late 50s. He whipped out his old accounting degree he had earned when he was 22, and was able to land a job, fairly easily compared to another in his position.

amother

Orchid

Fri, Nov 15 2019, 10:28 am

amother [ Jade ] wrote:

That may be true where you live, but where I live a degree means ZERO. I live in a very chassidish community where many people own their businesses, and these business owners provide great opportunity for the majority of the population that are not business owners. We bh have a flourishing economy and for those that aren't well off, there are amazing organizations out there. Nobody walks out of the grocery with empty hands because they cannot afford it. And btw, very few women work..

You are so set in your mind about a degree and education, I'm just proving to you again, a degree isn't everything! Could be in your community it's the only way to 'make it'. BH by us that is not the case.

It is precisely so many of these workers who are either on the government dole, struggling, or are relying financially on the community chessed programs. Look at the countless financial tzedakah organizations in our midst - especially in the community you describe. Look at the constant, non-ending fundraising every single week. If everything is as you say above, then why the need for all that? Nobody may walk out of the grocery with empty hands, but how many are unable to meet all the other necessities in life?

I find that many people in the community you describe, especially the ones doing well, have their heads buried in the sand. They use their own circumstances, or their own personal circle, and project it onto the rest of their community. Are you really aware of what's going on behind the scenes in everyone's life? Do you really think that all those struggling are announcing it to the community, or just put up fronts to save some grace? You should talk to the askonim and leaders of the community to truly find out what's going on behind everyone's mask. (I have talked to them, in case you're interested.)

I'm not set in my mind about a degree being the only way. And I've never said it's everything. What I am saying is that it sure offers other opportunities to those encountering only locked doors.

Ema of 5

Fri, Nov 15 2019, 10:29 am

watergirl wrote:

Sociology 101. You did not poll 100,000 people. You spoke to your friends in your community and in other communities. The people we chose to be friends with are just like us, so naturally, we will get results of non-scientific threads that are skewed based on who we ask. This is actually a thing in psychological/sociological studies. Its called population bias, aka social desirability bias. Its not a poll that is representative of all walks of frum life - just your walk. I have friends in other communities as well, people with 2 full time working parents, no nanny.

I stand by my claim that the people who YOU KNOW do what you say. The people who I know do not. So you can not claim anything for a vast majority of any group. Just for the vast majority of the people who you know.

I hate to get technical, but it was YOU who made a claim about the vast majority, not mistyrose.

watergirl

Fri, Nov 15 2019, 10:37 am

Ema of 4 wrote:

I hate to get technical, but it was YOU who made a claim about the vast majority, not mistyrose.

No I did not, and I just went back to check. I responded to her claim. Not to get technical.

This is her post, which is the second post on this tread:

amother [ Mistyrose ] wrote:

I'm the OP of the other thread.

Nobody I know has two full time working parents unless they have a nanny.

So it's obviously NOT the reality for the vast majority of frum people.

And this is my reply to it:

watergirl wrote:

No. Its not the reality for the frum people who you know. It IS the reality for the vast majority of the frum people who I know. I literally know not a single person with a nanny. I know many many people with two full time working parents. But I would never come to a conclusion for the vast majority of the frum population based on the people that I know... Do you see the error in your logic and your deduction?

dancingqueen

Fri, Nov 15 2019, 10:42 am

[quote="amother [ Salmon ]"]Personally I’m not looking to be rich.
I’m looking to pay my norgage, tuition, and save for future and retirement.
We need 200k for our current family size.
That is my goal now.
Many degrees even in a 2 income home will not earn that (where I live out of ny).
My DH and I both work hard and earn just above that.
I’m not saying it’s an easy path to just making it. But I don’t see a degree getting you there better.[/quote]

Of course it does, if you choose your degrees wisely.

Genius

Fri, Nov 15 2019, 11:05 am

Throughout history the poor population was always the majority. Always. Man came down to Earth to struggle. That's life. Our children will learn that life doesn't come easily just by being alive. We don't need to tell them that. Our hishtadlus is to look for a job and be ready to work hard. Hashem will send you however much is bashert for you either through one job or through two (that's up to you).

amother

Salmon

Fri, Nov 15 2019, 11:23 am

[quote="dancingqueen"]

amother [ Salmon ] wrote:

What degree will earn 200k on average/typical within first few years? Not NY salaries.

amother

Salmon

Fri, Nov 15 2019, 11:25 am

amother [ Orchid ] wrote:

I’m sorry that is not typical that a 30 yr old accounting degree with no experience will land someone a job immediately in a job that can support his family.
I have too many family members who are accountants and CPA’s to believe that

GreenEyes26

Fri, Nov 15 2019, 11:29 am

amother [ Salmon ] wrote:

If these communities didn’t encourage/force men to learn until they’re 30 and married with 5 kids, then it would. If you start working when you’re 22 after college, or even 25 after Israel + college, then by the time you’re 30 you’re eating a decent salary, even if your wife has to work also.

amother

Jade

Fri, Nov 15 2019, 11:35 am

amother [ Orchid ] wrote:

You are taking my words out of context. When I wrote that business owners provide great opportunity, I meant JOBS, not charity. Although they DO give a lot of charity as well, and many people benefit greatly.

I don't know what goes on behind everyone's closed door, but I do live with the people in my community. I see them on a regular basis. Majority do not live a high end lifestyle and so it doesn't cost them as much. Tuition is also not as high, which makes a huge difference.

I could start comparing tit for tat, but I'll never get done.

The point of this thread was that kids should be prepared for their life ahead. Should I start listing you how many girls in my class paid for their own wedding? And how many of them took side jobs during their school years so they could pay for camp? If that's not called being prepared for life, then what is?

Amarante

Fri, Nov 15 2019, 12:01 pm

amother [ Salmon ] wrote:

I'm not sure what amount you think a degree can make but my friend's son graduated from college with some kind of business degree and he was offered - as his first position out of college - a job paying about $90,000. That's to start - he recently switched jobs because he wanted a job with less travel but it was at a nice salary bump as well.

Statistically those with college degrees - even in the "soft" type of humanity majors - earn more over their lifetime and have greater job stability. A degree at a real university isn't just so that one crams in vocation information because any vocational information one learns will be obsolete. It enhances one's ability to assess information and to speak and write well which are skills that are transferable to many jobs that have little to do with the exact course work one took 20 years before that.

I realize that everything is anecdotal but there are far more upper middle class people with professional degrees who would not have achieved that degree of job success without a degree than there are wealthy entrepreneurs. I am not disputing that there are individuals who found a niche and succeeded financially but statistically the odds are that 20 years down the road a college graduate will be earning much more than someone who only has a high school degree.

To base one's future earnings of finding a successful product to sell on amazon is as much of a chimera as kids with good voices or sports ability thinking they will make it big as an entertainer or professional athlete. Get the degree and then one has something to fall back on when the get rich quick ideas fail to bear fruit.

amother

Mistyrose

Fri, Nov 15 2019, 12:22 pm

amother [ Salmon ] wrote:

You know, that's really nice, but DH and I also both work very hard. We don't make anywhere near that.

Anyone who's doing well will let everyone know, but those who are not making it are not going around announcing it.

amother

Mistyrose

Fri, Nov 15 2019, 12:27 pm

amother [ Salmon ] wrote:

How much will your typical actuary, cpa, lawyer make working crazy hours for a big firm the first few years?

What is the avg max they can earn?

Actuary - 150k
CPA - 150k
Physical therapist - 120k

That is after years of work. At that point that salary isn’t even enough for your avg frum family with tuitions and weddings.

Let's see, how much can someone who does not have a degree and does not open a business make? Do you think they all make 120 to 150k after a few years? I don't have the statistics, but I very much doubt it.

Let's not aim for the moon. It's true that you can't easily make over 200k, even with a degree, but for many it's a lot more than what they are earning right now. Also, not everyone has the same expenses and it's possible for some to live ok on 150k, with the wife going to work as expenses expand. While it's not easy, it's doable. Living on nothing is not.

amother

Mistyrose

Fri, Nov 15 2019, 12:35 pm

amother [ Jade ] wrote:

I don't think you understood her. It's not that business owners provide charity (although hopefully they give charity as well), it's just that so many of these workers cannot make it on their salaries and have to resort to government programs and/or tzedakah.

No, you don't know what goes on behind closed doors, but statistics don't lie. Look at the statistics for the amount of people on programs, who need tzedakah.

I don't know how much you know about the financial reality of the people in your community, but we've had this discussion many times on imamother. Some costs are higher, some costs are lower. Even allowing for lower tuition, it's still a lot. And housing costs are a lot. Food is a lot. Clothing. Wedding expenses. I'm not sure that living in the Chassidic community is as cheap as you are making it out to be.

amother

Linen

Fri, Nov 15 2019, 12:58 pm

amother [ Jade ] wrote:

I am not sure how this computes since the extremely Chassidish community in New Square has the highest rate of poverty in the United States and the poverty level in Williamsburg, New York is about 24%.

The reality is that those working for small entrepreneurial businesses make very low wages and almost never have significant benefits which are valuable like corporate health plans or 401 (k) matching plans.

Much like Walmart which pays similarly low wages, the government - and thus we taxpayers - subsidize the profits of the businesses which do not provide living wages or benefits to their workers since the government funds Medicaid, disability and all the other programs which are utilized to a high degree in these communities.

I don't begrudge poor people government assistance. However, I do "begrudge" a community that deliberately sets up a system that is sustained only because its members receive lots of government benefits.

The issue is whether one wants to have one's children prepared in the best way possible to be able to support their families and obviously this economic model doesn't work without subsidies.

amother

Fri, Nov 15 2019, 1:26 pm

amother [ Mistyrose ] wrote:

Hi, OP from the other thread here:

Yes, my parents did educate me about the harsh, cold realities in life. Yes, they did tell me that we need two incomes in order to survive. I had training in a very high income field, and I COULD have gone that route.

When my children were little, I didn't want to work full time. I still think it's crazy that society expects women to work full time while simultaneously raising a family. This is not about the hard, cold facts of life, this is about society gone meshuga. IMO.

Ah, but that IS a hard, cold fact of life. Society DOES expect women to work full time, and until that changes, which, frankly I don't see happening, the reality is that most women need to work, often full time, in order to make ends meet.

And for those who say owning a business can be as profitable as earning a degree, I can't argue with that. But I can say that stability is an incredibly important part of supporting a family. And losing a business and having to open another and another simply does not equate with having a degree and losing a job and having to find another. Because opening a new business takes capital. Finding a new job in your field simply does not.

My husband took the degree road and went back to finish up college and then grad school the week after we got married. Why? Because he was working in the food industry when we met, and we both knew there simply is no stability there. He's an amazing culinary-school-educated chef, and over the years, people have asked him to quit his job as an education administrator and open a restaurant. With their backing. He turned them down every time.

It's all about stability.

amother

Jade

Fri, Nov 15 2019, 2:07 pm

amother [ Linen ] wrote:

Firstly, the regular jobs in our community could earn you the same as those with a degree in the outside world. For example, you could be an accountant without a degree, and earn just as much as those with a degree in the outside world.

Secondly, The reason for the poverty level is not at all due to lower income, it's due to the fact that we have large families. The larger the family, the higher your income needs to be so it should not fall under under the poverty level.
Government programs is a drop in the bucket compared to the expenses. And btw the American population at large that supposedly subsidizes our way living, take way more from the government than we do.For example, a student in public school is over 20k a year.

SixOfWands

Fri, Nov 15 2019, 2:30 pm

The article indicated that about 70 percent of KY's residents live below federal poverty levels with nearly half of the village's households reporting annual incomes less than $15,000.

The federal poverty level, BTW, is $43,430 for a family of 8.

You can try convincing me that's not poor, but you won't succeed.

You can try convincing me that a CPA with 10 years' experience makes less than that, but you'd be wrong.