Bringing children into non-ideal situations

southernbubby

Fri, Nov 15 2019, 10:57 am

Refine wrote:

I wonder about the doiros consideration.
For there to be Doiros said child needs to be emotionally strong enough to get married and raise a child into adulthood so that their child can do the same.
If there is too much pain in the upbringing, the child might chvsh end up delinquient, overdosed, etc. and therefore unable to continue the Doris past the first generation.
But there's no way to predict what will be, and it's a very dearly held value so it can be really heartbreaking to face.

My sister and her husband have an only daughter and this child was given everything including a Jewish day school education through 8th grade. This daughter has been successful in life and is married but really doesn't want a child. She hopefully will give her husband one before she gets too old because he wants one but naturally we would hope that she could love the child.
My point is that even when a child has two loving and devoted parents, as well as a Jewish education, that won't always translate into descendants.
I don't think that anyone can tell someone else whether or not to have a child, unless they either ask for our advice or expect our help in raising it; nor can we predict the future of a child by looking at the family structure.

amother

Apricot

Fri, Nov 15 2019, 12:01 pm

Refine wrote:

There's no way to predict events that can disrupt or cause trauma. Even if the child was born under most ideal circumstances.
Additionally people are born with different levels of resiliency which is not predictable either. I've read interesting articles on this, scientists believe there may be a gene possibility that could account for why some people are able to push through adverse upbringings and others aren't. But they really don't know.

amother

Apricot

Fri, Nov 15 2019, 4:08 pm

Personally I wouldn't categorize it as ideal/non ideal. I think it's more along the lines of dysfunctional vs having the capability (physical and emotional) to bring up a healthy (physically and emotionally) child. I think single mothers can be just as capable in this regard. I think a woman in a bad marriage who may end up using her emotional bond with her child to compensate for her lack of relationship with her husband or as a way to manipulate her relationship with her husband, less so. By that I mean, force her husband to pay attention to her by convincing herself and everyone around her that her child has a severe problem sort of munchausen by proxy, I've worked in a professional capacity with families/children for a number of years and that has probably been the most damaging situation that I've observed. It can have major repercussions on the child. Pretty chilling to observe tbh.

professor

Sat, Nov 16 2019, 7:26 pm

amother [ Ecru ] wrote:

So how "non-ideal" do things need to be in order to make it a bad idea?

Children getting murdered at birth = not enough of a reason (see: Egypt)
Entire communities getting exterminated = not enough of a reason (see: Holocaust)
Extreme poverty = not enough of a reason (see: almost every time period)

Perhaps only if the children themselves will be making the situation worse, as opposed to being simply born into it, would it seem like it should be avoided?

Did they always have birth control?

Laiya

Sat, Nov 16 2019, 7:32 pm

SixOfWands wrote:

Carrier of what? And is IVF with pre-implantation testing possible?

No, no pre-screening of any sort. Two individuals, who each have multiple family members with, say cystic fibrosis, tay-sachs, whatever, but have no idea as to their own carrier status. They get married, use no bc and simply hope for the best.

I think it's possible to acknowledge this situation as tragic, or at the least, incredibly reckless with respect to concern for the possible pain and suffering of the child born, while at the same time, saying the appropriate mazel tov on the baby's birth.

amother

Apricot

Sat, Nov 16 2019, 8:00 pm

professor wrote:

Did they always have birth control?

I know I read a response to the question about using birth control in the ghetto, in Rabbi Oshry's book. I think the question was about condoms, because that was all they had available.
Iirc, he paskened that it was ok for morale purposes.

amother

Brown

Sun, Nov 17 2019, 6:58 am

amother [ Apricot ] wrote:

Single women don't ever have MBP? Come on.

southernbubby

Sun, Nov 17 2019, 7:09 am

mig100 wrote:

I agree 100% especially the bolded.

The question is how to define that

Are they looking to you for guidance? In superwify's example, an overwhelmed and neglectful mother asks her for advice. In cases where an incapable person expects lots of help from parents, siblings, neighbors, community members etc, someone will have to speak up if this crosses a line.
One friend of mine had seven babies in an incredibly short period of time and their Rav, who was Chassidishe, pulled the father aside at the bris of number 7 and told the father to give his exhausted wife a break.
I met a woman who teaches Head start in a frum school and some of the children are terribly neglected. Maybe the mother has PPD and needs medication rather than another baby. The social workers can try to give the mother guidance.
Obviously if someone neither wants our advice and is not expecting our physical, emotional, or financial help, we have no ability to influence them.

amother

Apricot

Sun, Nov 17 2019, 9:55 am

amother [ Brown ] wrote:

Single women don't ever have MBP? Come on.

I
Never claimed that. Just saying, that single vs married isn't necessarily the defining factor as ideal vs non ideal or functional vs dysfunctional. It's easy to look at a single mom and scrutinize every single aspect of child's emotional health but people rarely put the same microscope on the children of a married couple unless there are obvious and in the open issues. Therefore it is definitely easier for issues to get overlooked. And I wasn't talking about actual munchausen by proxy, that's just what I was comparing the emotional manipulation to because I don't think there's a name for a woman using her emotional bond with a child to compensate for the lack of one with her husband. But it definitely exists, I've observed it many many times.

amother

Coral

Sun, Nov 17 2019, 10:27 am

amother [ Apricot ] wrote:

There is emotional incest or covert incest- where an adult uses a child like that.

amother

Apricot

Sun, Nov 17 2019, 2:14 pm

Of course! And I'm not demonizing women in these situations, just pointing out that a child brought up by an emotionally healthy single mother is more likely to be emotionally healthy than a child brought up under those circumstances. Just saying it is easy to point at a single mother and make assumptions while a married one gets the benefit of the doubt so to speak.

amother

Brown

Sun, Nov 17 2019, 2:15 pm

amother [ Apricot ] wrote:

For sure. But I'm not sure married/ divorced mothers are more guilty of it than single-by-choice mothers.

southernbubby

Sun, Nov 17 2019, 2:26 pm

amother [ Brown ] wrote:

For sure. But I'm not sure married/ divorced mothers are more guilty of it than single-by-choice mothers.

I would imagine that some single mothers by choice have a lot of family support and encouragement. It would be really hard to do it without the family being on board.
There was once a story about a frum single woman who adopted a girl from India. Her mother could not bond with this very sweet child, despite the fact that the child worked so hard to gain the bubby's love. One day, the little girl was visiting the bubby and the bubby fell or had a stroke. The little girl saved the bubby's life by calling 911 and that was what it took for the bubby to accept her.

amother

Brown

Sun, Nov 17 2019, 2:52 pm

southernbubby wrote:

That doesn't have anything to do with MBP or emotional incest, though.
You can have lots of family support and still emotionally abuse your child by treating him/her as a confidante/ replacement spouse.
Certainly MBP is possible as a single mother.