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Forum
-> Chinuch, Education & Schooling
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amother
OP
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 Tue, Nov 19 2019, 8:01 pm
I live in a large community outside the tri-state.
90% of the girls in twelfth grade go to seminary in ey.
How in the world? I have a large family and my husband and I are both in chinuch. We simply don't have 20,000 for each daughter. But there are so many others with similar family size and income. They're all doing it! How??????
I don't want my daughters to feel like they're the only ones who stay, but the dollars and cents just don't add. It would be irresponsible to go into debt over this, especially since I hope to start making chassunas not long after.
So how does everyone do it?
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amother
Floralwhite
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Tue, Nov 19 2019, 8:13 pm
FAFSA.
Masa.
Working with the seminaries on tuition reductions: my parents paid the same $7,000 for my seminary tuition as they did for the 4 years of high school. They did the same for my sister.
Money saved up for several years.
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amother
Silver
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Tue, Nov 19 2019, 8:14 pm
| amother [ Floralwhite ] wrote: | FAFSA.
Masa.
Working with the seminaries on tuition reductions.
Money saved up for several years. |
The girls themselves contribute..
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honeymoon
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Tue, Nov 19 2019, 8:30 pm
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Read this weeks binah magazine. It's a seminary issue and talks about this exact question.
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amother
Bisque
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Tue, Nov 19 2019, 8:34 pm
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Girls often work in high school babysitting, tutoring, summer jobs and save up and contribute. And you can apply for financial aid. Also some people have rich relatives that help.
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amother
Navy
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Tue, Nov 19 2019, 8:43 pm
I didnt go to seminary because it was hard for my parents financially. In town, most of my class went.
I didnt and dont regret it for a second. My parents didnt have to pay a ridiculous ammount of money, I married a learning boy anyway, BH had no problems with shidduchim and now 12 years later, seminary is a distant thing of the past.
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#BestBubby
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Tue, Nov 19 2019, 8:49 pm
| amother [ Navy ] wrote: | I didnt go to seminary because it was hard for my parents financially. In town, most of my class went.
I didnt and dont regret it for a second. My parents didnt have to pay a ridiculous ammount of money, I married a learning boy anyway, BH had no problems with shidduchim and now 12 years later, seminary is a distant thing of the past. |
Kudos to you for not pressuring your parents for an expensive luxury!
But I understand how girls feel they will lose their friends if their friends go to EY and they don't.
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amother
Mustard
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Tue, Nov 19 2019, 8:51 pm
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Sell your jewelry and car to do seminary, sell your house to do wedding, sell the rest of your kids to support SIL and DD for 10 years. Welcome to this new stage in life. Mazel tov!
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amother
OP
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Tue, Nov 19 2019, 8:52 pm
| amother [ Bisque ] wrote: | | Girls often work in high school babysitting, tutoring, summer jobs and save up and contribute. And you can apply for financial aid. Also some people have rich relatives that help. |
What kind of financial aid?
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little neshamala
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Tue, Nov 19 2019, 8:53 pm
OP not everyone who goes, does so responsibly.
A good family friend of mine has been up to their ears in debt for the past 8 years. Their house went into foreclosure twice, and we made a gofundme campaign for them. As of 2 years ago they were around 100k in debt. They have k"ah over 10 kids, the husband lost his job....its awful. Last year they nearly had their electricity shut off because they were so behind on the bills, we collected more money for them. Now again, we are collecting money for them...but the ammounts we're getting are not nearly enough to come close. My husband has paid crazy high grocery bill behind their back, we got them on tomche shabbos etc... They have a few kids who will be in shidduchim in the next few years, and the wedding costs are just going to aggravate the debt they already have.
But
They sent 2 girls to seminary last year and the year before. Who knows, maybe it came from the money we raised for them, maybe they just went further in debt, dont know.
But just because people do it, doesnt mean they can afford to, and it doesnt mean they should.
PS- the second daughter that went came back saying she didnt really have such an amazing year and it was kind of a waste. Now I really hope it wasnt our tzedakah that sent her
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amother
Navy
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Tue, Nov 19 2019, 8:55 pm
| #BestBubby wrote: | Kudos to you for not pressuring your parents for an expensive luxury!
But I understand how girls feel they will lose their friends if their friends go to EY and they don't. |
You know what, those girls are just going to have to grow up 10 months earlier than their classmates.
Their friends wont always be the same. Life changes. Theyll be dating and getting married soon. They can learn to deal with it.
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amother
Powderblue
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Tue, Nov 19 2019, 8:58 pm
| little neshamala wrote: | OP not everyone who goes, does so responsibly.
A good family friend of mine has been up to their ears in debt for the past 8 years. Their house went into foreclosure twice, and we made a gofundme campaign for them. As of 2 years ago they were around 100k in debt. They have k"ah over 10 kids, the husband lost his job....its awful. Last year they nearly had their electricity shut off because they were so behind on the bills, we collected more money for them. Now again, we are collecting money for them...but the ammounts we're getting are not nearly enough to come close. My husband has paid crazy high grocery bill behind their back, we got them on tomche shabbos etc... They have a few kids who will be in shidduchim in the next few years, and the wedding costs are just going to aggravate the debt they already have.
But
They sent 2 girls to seminary last year and the year before. Who knows, maybe it came from the money we raised for them, maybe they just went further in debt, dont know.
But just because people do it, doesnt mean they can afford to, and it doesnt mean they should.
PS- the second daughter that went came back saying she didnt really have such an amazing year and it was kind of a waste. Now I really hope it wasnt our tzedakah that sent her |
Or maybe you just don't know what happened behind the scenes. We are going through financial hardships plus a lot of other issues. We also have people who pay bills for us, or give us tzedakah privately. Someone insisted that my dd should go to seminary to get away from the craziness and they insisted on paying for it. I agreed that it was the best thing for my dd, so I agreed to take the money. But I don't go around telling people how I paid, I feel very uncomfortable knowing what they're probably thinking, but it's already so painful to have to take money from people, I don't share more than I have to.
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amother
Wheat
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Tue, Nov 19 2019, 9:00 pm
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I know girls that worked summer jobs for a few years and saved up. Others go through a college and get a lot of credits through sem and get a huge discount.
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amother
Forestgreen
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Tue, Nov 19 2019, 9:12 pm
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Someone who is involved in Hachnasas Kallah told me there are many people who come for the last 20k to make a wedding and he thinks if only they didn't do seminary...
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Fox
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Tue, Nov 19 2019, 9:32 pm
The OOT pressure to go to seminary is ridiculous, reckless, and not consistent with a Torah outlook.
If a girl specifically needs to go for some reason or wants to go (and has therefore the saved money for it), then fine. But seminaries are money-making institutions for their owners and families. The idea that a girl should go just so she can participate in all the hoopla is the worst possible lesson imaginable.
When my DH and I seriously researched seminary options, we discovered that about 40 percent of the girls had a good experience; 50 percent had a bad experience; and 10 percent had a life-changing experience for the good. The girls who had bad experiences were typically those who were least motivated to attend seminary for its own merits.
We chose not to send our daughters, and I am thankful we had the backbone. The financial pressure put on families is enormous. Rabbi Shloimie Simon, who works with Agudath Israel of the Midwest offering credit counseling, estimates that seminary or seminary plus subsequent weddings are the biggest causes of financial problems among frum families.
It never came up at all in shidduchim.
If someone whom you trust feels your daughter needs the hashkafic influence of seminary or your daughter has saved money to go, then by all means, extend yourself. If your daughter is going to because "everybody" goes, then it's time to learn that not everybody really has a pony.
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little neshamala
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Tue, Nov 19 2019, 9:40 pm
| Fox wrote: | The OOT pressure to go to seminary is ridiculous, reckless, and not consistent with a Torah outlook.
If a girl specifically needs to go for some reason or wants to go (and has therefore the saved money for it), then fine. But seminaries are money-making institutions for their owners and families. The idea that a girl should go just so she can participate in all the hoopla is the worst possible lesson imaginable.
When my DH and I seriously researched seminary options, we discovered that about 40 percent of the girls had a good experience; 50 percent had a bad experience; and 10 percent had a life-changing experience for the good. The girls who had bad experiences were typically those who were least motivated to attend seminary for its own merits.
We chose not to send our daughters, and I am thankful we had the backbone. The financial pressure put on families is enormous. Rabbi Shloimie Simon, who works with Agudath Israel of the Midwest offering credit counseling, estimates that seminary or seminary plus subsequent weddings are the biggest causes of financial problems among frum families.
It never came up at all in shidduchim.
If someone whom you trust feels your daughter needs the hashkafic influence of seminary or your daughter has saved money to go, then by all means, extend yourself. If your daughter is going to because "everybody" goes, then it's time to learn that not everybody really has a pony. |
Well said, worth internalizing.
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amother
Brown
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Tue, Nov 19 2019, 11:05 pm
| Fox wrote: | The OOT pressure to go to seminary is ridiculous, reckless, and not consistent with a Torah outlook.
If a girl specifically needs to go for some reason or wants to go (and has therefore the saved money for it), then fine. But seminaries are money-making institutions for their owners and families. The idea that a girl should go just so she can participate in all the hoopla is the worst possible lesson imaginable.
When my DH and I seriously researched seminary options, we discovered that about 40 percent of the girls had a good experience; 50 percent had a bad experience; and 10 percent had a life-changing experience for the good. The girls who had bad experiences were typically those who were least motivated to attend seminary for its own merits.
We chose not to send our daughters, and I am thankful we had the backbone. The financial pressure put on families is enormous. Rabbi Shloimie Simon, who works with Agudath Israel of the Midwest offering credit counseling, estimates that seminary or seminary plus subsequent weddings are the biggest causes of financial problems among frum families.
It never came up at all in shidduchim.
If someone whom you trust feels your daughter needs the hashkafic influence of seminary or your daughter has saved money to go, then by all means, extend yourself. If your daughter is going to because "everybody" goes, then it's time to learn that not everybody really has a pony. |
First, excellent post. I agree with w everything you said. I’m curious to know how you’re so sure that it never came up with Shidduchim- I can bH afford to send my daughter, but I don’t especially want to... if I end up sending her I’m sure Some part of the decision will be “how will it look if she doesn’t go.”
I would like to raise another issue re seminary- I’m just so turned off by the whole thing, in large part because the same money making administrators who (let’s face it) are in it entirely to make a parnassa for their families, for some reason we can’t treat them as the business people they are- oh no- they’re MECHANCHIM. They deserve our respect and reverence. They deserve to be telling our impressionable 18 year olds what Real Life is all about, and what their goals and aspirations ought to be...
I personally went to a good seminary. Had some good teachers. I still remember them knocking our new york parents, talking about how shallow and conforming and materialistic they were... well maybe they were, but as an adult, it’s clear to me that the teachers for the most part weren’t all such complete role models themselves. When I was a student, that was NOT so clear to me, I was very ready to take everything they said at face value.
Basically, this is just a disgruntled vent. I think the whole seminary thing is ridiculous. And I’ll probably send my girls because they’ll want to go, and I can afford it, and that’s what parents do, we give things to our kids. But it sticks in my craw to have to pretend it’s all about “growth”. Puh-Leeze.
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Ruchel
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Wed, Nov 20 2019, 4:32 am
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Many either get a grant, or don't send.
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amother
Rose
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Wed, Nov 20 2019, 5:01 am
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Some girls work every summer and babysit during the year and save up a lot for sem.
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amother
Saddlebrown
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Wed, Nov 20 2019, 6:09 am
We got a masa grant which made a big difference. But a lot went on our cc.
Seminary was very beneficial for both my daughters and I am happy we sent them. I think its more important than big weddings. I'd be totally happy to do simple weddings...but alas there is the other side to consider. In my circles people make as simple weddings as they can but still when you have to invite 2 or 300 people it still costs money. I wish a simple wedding with a reception and dancing was ok.
One daughter has a huge love for learning torah and seminary really helped her explore that. In high school it was all about tests but in seminary she is doing it for the love of learning. I got a lot of nachas when she came home for pesach and sat learning gemara with her brother.
Another daughter went to a more out of the box seminary when they learnt different skills as well as torah and she discovered that she loves doing a certain thing which she is now studying full time. This is a kid who we could never work out what she wanted to do in life.
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