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amother
OP
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 Wed, Nov 20 2019, 10:35 pm
The third special merit was not changing the Jewish custom of dress. Rabbi Hillel of Paritch was a tzadik and great scholar who chose to become a devoted chassid of the first three Chabad Rebbes. It is known that he would not change his custom of dress, even under threat of death. Explaining his steadfastness, Rabbi Hillel said he possessed a document of Rebbe Pinchas of Koretz on which was written that just as clothing covers and surrounds us, so too it is spiritually connected to the divine attribute of Understanding [bina], that "covers" and is the basis of our emotions which lead to action. The Arizal said that even though the Jews in Egypt had entered the 49 gates of impurity, they had not yet fallen into the 50th. For this reason we were redeemed from Egypt. The 50th gateway of impurity is parallel to its converse, the pure 50th gate of Understanding. By not changing their dress - which is connected to understanding - the Jews had the power to stay out of that 50th gate of impurity! Rebbe Pinchas' document also explained that just before the final redemption, there will be enormous pressure on the Jews to conform to foreign dress codes - to push them into the 50th gate of impurity - and they will succumb, G‑d forbid!
So on what merit will we be redeemed? On the merit of a few individuals who, against all odds, will not relinquish their customary dress. Rabbi Hillel closed by saying that anyone who had such a document would undoubtedly sacrifice all to fulfill its requirements; the only problem is that no one has it. I do, therefore I must comply!
https://www.chabad.org/kabbala.....e.htm
What exactly is Jewish "customary dress"?
Black hats?
Knitted Yarmulkas?
Chassidic hats?
Shtreimels?
Hasnt "customary dress" changed every century?
Obviously, not all Ultra Orthodox and Orthodox Rebbes and Rabbis feel that "customary dress" is defined as the same thing.
How long does any group of Jews have to dress a certain way for it to be considered "customary dress"?
Jews clearly dressed at Matan Torah, nothing at all like we dress now.
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avrahamama
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Wed, Nov 20 2019, 10:42 pm
Well for sure tzitzit? Covered heads for both men and women. (yes I know a kippa is not halacha, but headcovering is required for davar shebkedusha)
Tzanua clothing? I imagine the ladies didn't wear the Egyptian head dresses that have avoda Zara on them.
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trixx
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Wed, Nov 20 2019, 10:49 pm
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Probably whatever in that culture defined them as jews instead of non Jewish clothing styles.
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amother
OP
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Wed, Nov 20 2019, 10:50 pm
Upholding Tznius is key. Thats agreed by all Orthodox Jews.
I sometimes think that different Jewish groups' way of dress, that go beyond the laws of Tznius, serves to divide Jews, more than unify Jews.
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Genius
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Wed, Nov 20 2019, 11:05 pm
| amother [ OP ] wrote: | Upholding Tznius is key. Thats agreed by all Orthodox Jews.
I sometimes think that different Jewish groups' way of dress, that go beyond the laws of Tznius, serves to divide Jews, more than unify Jews. |
When the yidden went through the yam suf they were divided by walls. glass walls. I once heard that was to teach us that we should follow in the footsteps of OUR forefathers, while at the same time know that there are other yidden who do differently and yet respect it and know that we all serve the creator in our own special way.
It is not the dress code that divides us but the disrespect some have for people who look different.
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amother
OP
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Wed, Nov 20 2019, 11:10 pm
| genius wrote: | | It is not the dress code that divides us but the disrespect some have for people who look different. |
Definitely. And its people from both the left and the right branches of Orthodoxy who are equally guilty of looking down at others who dress differently.
This exactly makes me think its a hindrance to unity.
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Genius
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Wed, Nov 20 2019, 11:17 pm
| amother [ OP ] wrote: | Definitely. And its people from both the left and the right branches of Orthodoxy who are equally guilty of looking down at others who dress differently.
This exactly makes me think its a hindrance to unity. |
This=the disrespect.
I still say it isn't the dress code that you should hold responsible. People who have different tastes should also respect each others. (and be proud of your own minhagim---makes for less hurt).
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amother
OP
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Wed, Nov 20 2019, 11:19 pm
| genius wrote: | This=the disrespect.
I still say it isn't the dress code that you should hold responsible. People who have different tastes should also respect each others. (and be proud of your own minhagim---makes for less hurt). |
Should? yes, should. Its people from both the left and the right branches of Orthodoxy who are equally guilty of looking down at others who dress differently. Hence the source of disunity.
I dont think that will change any time soon.
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professor
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Wed, Nov 20 2019, 11:38 pm
| genius wrote: | When the yidden went through the yam suf they were divided by walls. glass walls. I once heard that was to teach us that we should follow in the footsteps of OUR forefathers, while at the same time know that there are other yidden who do differently and yet respect it and know that we all serve the creator in our own special way.
It is not the dress code that divides us but the disrespect some have for people who look different. |
Love this vort
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avrahamama
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Wed, Nov 20 2019, 11:39 pm
Wow this went from how are we different from other nations to how are we different from each other veeeerrrry fast.
That escalated quickly!
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avrahamama
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Wed, Nov 20 2019, 11:45 pm
I took the OP question as what's Jewish clothes.
Kind of like what's Jewish food. Matzah is Jewish food. Charoset is Jewish food. Is matzah ball soup Jewish? Yes for Ashkenazi Jews. But is it across the board Jewish? From the torah, Jewish? No. Maybe cholent and hamin and dafina are the created from the same needs... They're Jewish food.
But anyway. What is the Jewish uniform? Tzitzit is def jewish... I once heard that any four cornered garment requires tzitzit even a shawl for a lady. But don't remember the rest of that conversation ... So not sure why our pashminas don't require tzitzit
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amother
Cyan
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Wed, Nov 20 2019, 11:50 pm
This story is published in a book about R' Hillel Paritcher by Rabbi Avtzon, but it is written somewhat differently there.
Here's how I remember it (if I can find the book I'll provide an exact quote):
Someone asked R' Hillel why he dressed so old-fashioned.
He responded, "I saw in an old sefer that in the times before Moshiach, there will be a tremendous desire to follow the current styles. Moshiach will come in the zechus of those who do not follow these styles. Since I saw this book, it must mean that I should be one of them."
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amother
OP
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Wed, Nov 20 2019, 11:51 pm
| avrahamama wrote: | Wow this went from how are we different from other nations to how are we different from each other veeeerrrry fast.
That escalated quickly! |
I bothers me that a great percentage of people, from both sides of Orthodoxy, who dress a certain way, look down at other Jews who dress differently, even if both clearly dress within the boundaries of Hilchos Tznius.
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southernbubby
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Thu, Nov 21 2019, 12:22 am
| amother [ OP ] wrote: | | I bothers me that a great percentage of people, from both sides of Orthodoxy, who dress a certain way, look down at other Jews who dress differently, even if both clearly dress within the boundaries of Hilchos Tznius. |
Is it really a great percentage? Years ago there were some stories of a few incidents that happened between the residents of RBS-A and RBS-B but that was maybe a decade ago. Since then it has been live and let live.
There are signs in front of Town Square and Shoppers Haven requesting that the public respect our standards of modesty but they don't go out of their way to ridicule someone who doesn't keep them.
What someone thinks when they see a woman in her late 30's in a mini-skirt due to latent adolescent rebellion is anybody's guess but we are not privy into the thoughts of others unless they express it openly.
RW and MO don't dress alike and don't want to dress alike but I don't see many people fixated on that.
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amother
OP
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Thu, Nov 21 2019, 12:33 am
| southernbubby wrote: | | RW and MO don't dress alike and don't want to dress alike but I don't see many people fixated on that. |
First of all, Chabad people are more accepting than most, which is a beautiful thing.
But when youve been outside of Chabad circles, in areas with predominantly one type of Jew, like Teaneck (Mod Orth) or Williamsburg (RW Orth), are you saying that based on comments you may have overheard, and facial expressions you may have seen, as someone who I assume is in their sixties or close, that both groups are way more accepting and respectful of one another, than not accepting and not respectful of one another?
Thats a comforting thought. Thanks.
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southernbubby
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Thu, Nov 21 2019, 1:09 am
| amother [ OP ] wrote: | First of all, Chabad people are more accepting than most, which is a beautiful thing.
But when youve been outside of Chabad circles, in areas with predominantly one type of Jew, like Teaneck (Mod Orth) or Williamsburg (RW Orth), are you saying that based on comments you may have overheard, and facial expressions you may have seen, as someone who I assume is in their sixties or close, that both groups are way more accepting and respectful of one another, than not accepting and not respectful of one another?
Thats a comforting thought. Thanks. |
My neighbors, now that I moved to Monsey, are Chassidishe with a few Chabad mixed in. These people don't usually approach other Yidden about where they are holding in Yiddishkeit but as soon as someone shows a bit of interest, the Chassidishe embrace that person and assist them in becoming frum.
There are little kids who say things about the way that others dress because they are taught that clothing that isn't tznius to their standards are the clothing styles of the non-Jews and the Chassidishe don't their own children to adopt those styles.
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PinkFridge
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Thu, Nov 21 2019, 9:16 am
I'm surprised no one's asked, if BY didn't change their clothes in Mitzrayim, why did they take Egyptian clothes with them as part of the rechus gadol?
I don't remember the answer, though I believe I've heard the question asked. I would suggest that they took clothes that were not objectionable in anyway and/or clothes that would have resale or bartering value.
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#BestBubby
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Thu, Nov 21 2019, 10:08 am
An "enlightened" non-religious Jew once mocked a Chossid asking, "Did Avrohom Avinu wear a shtreimel? Did Avrohom Avinu wear a Kapote?"
The Chossid answered:
"I don't know what Avrohom Avinu wore. But Avrohom Avinu looked what the gentiles are wearing and wore something DIFFERENT."
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amother
Gold
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Thu, Nov 21 2019, 11:51 am
| #BestBubby wrote: | An "enlightened" non-religious Jew once mocked a Chossid asking, "Did Avrohom Avinu wear a shtreimel? Did Avrohom Avinu wear a Kapote?"
The Chossid answered:
"I don't know what Avrohom Avinu wore. But Avrohom Avinu looked what the gentiles are wearing and wore something DIFFERENT." |
Yeah, but there's something distasteful about dressing up like an antisemite and then saying that anyone dressed otherwise isn't keeping the mesorah.
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