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5 yr old DS totally manipulating me - help!



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amother
OP


 

Post Fri, Dec 06 2019, 11:41 am
My 5 year old started having major behavioral issues a few months ago after we had to leave without notice for a few weeks for a medical emergency. He became angry, aggressive and out of control leading to a lot of disciplinary escalations. My husband and I (upon the advice of some wonderful imamothers here, thank you!) decided to take a positive approach and try to eliminate as many power struggles as we could, giving him tons and tons of positive attention and affection and choosing not to engage in power struggles. When it comes to really important things, we stand our ground, but we found that when we had eliminated almost all power struggles and 99% of our interactions were positive, he is more receptive to cooperating when we need to stand our ground. This approach really worked wonders and he has become a different kid - sweet and happy instead of angry and belligerent.

The problem is in situations that we hold our ground and he refuses to cooperate. Lately we have found ourselves "giving in" or bribing rather than risk an escalation which always ends badly.

So for example, this morning he refused to go to school. (He complains every morning that he doesn't want to go, yet I've spoken to his teachers and they all say he is very happy in school.) I was sick and in bed, and he refused to get his shoes on (or allow anyone to put them on). First my husband tried consequences ("if you don't put your shoes on and come in the car, you're not going to be allowed to come to the Shabbos seudah tonight"), but we saw right away this was headed down the wrong path, when he started crying and belligerently said "fine, I won't come!". Him staying home was not an option (not an option on any day and certainly not when I'm sick), so then I tried bribing (hating myself while I was saying it) "if you go nicely, you can have a popsicle right when you come home from school". He replied "no, I'll only go if you buy me a prize from the dollar store". I said fine. A few minutes later as he's putting on his coat he says "you have to buy me a prize and give me a popsicle". I'm feeling sick at this manipulation, but I know that if I say no, there will be a massive tantrum, my husband will have to leave for work, and DS will be left at home, so I say ok. And then again as he's about to walk out the door "you have to give the prize and popsicle to only me and not anyone else", and again I feel forced to say yes.

I need advice for:

1) how to deal with this specific situation when he comes home - I am so loathe to give him the popsicle and prize because I feel so manipulated and don't want to reinforce this manipulation. On the other hand, I can't not give it to him as I told him I would.

2) how to deal with this manipulation in general. I find that we are constantly being manipulated by him because the alternative of an escalation is either 1) so damaging or 2) not an option (such as when he needs to get to school)

Would appreciate any advice, thank you!
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mha3484




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Dec 06 2019, 11:56 am
I have some very strong willed children so I can say what I do maybe it will help you.

I got rid of the word manipulation from my head. I trained myself to see all behavior as communication. It took ages but it paid off. My mantra is that if a kid is giving me a hard time they are having an even harder time and honestly after the incident dies down and I think about it its usually true.

In your case, you said you went away for a medical emergency. a 5 year old is not a baby. Did you talk to him about why you were going? Who was sick? He was probably very scared and is lacking the vocabulary to express himself. When you said your sick in bed while he was getting ready for school is that a cold/flu thing or a more chronic illness that you have to manage? He may just be very anxious and who wants to go to school when you feel that way? I dont want to go to work when I am not mentally feeling great.
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amother
OP


 

Post Fri, Dec 06 2019, 12:04 pm
mha3484 wrote:
I have some very strong willed children so I can say what I do maybe it will help you.

I got rid of the word manipulation from my head. I trained myself to see all behavior as communication. It took ages but it paid off. My mantra is that if a kid is giving me a hard time they are having an even harder time and honestly after the incident dies down and I think about it its usually true.

In your case, you said you went away for a medical emergency. a 5 year old is not a baby. Did you talk to him about why you were going? Who was sick? He was probably very scared and is lacking the vocabulary to express himself. When you said your sick in bed while he was getting ready for school is that a cold/flu thing or a more chronic illness that you have to manage? He may just be very anxious and who wants to go to school when you feel that way? I dont want to go to work when I am not mentally feeling great.


Yes, we explained everything to him when we went away and discussed his feelings about being scared, missing us, etc.

You are right - I am sure that my being in bed contributed to his unwillingness to go (we were snuggling and he didn't want to leave, etc.) I just wasn't feeling well, no chronic illness bH.

But what should I do this afternoon - should I give him the things I promised him?

Also, this problem comes up a lot at other times that are not anomalies like bedtime. For example, each child gets 5 minutes of snuggles. Often he'll jump around during his snuggles despite my telling him that his time is getting used up. When his time is over, he will start crying that he wants snuggles and will refuse to stay in bed. I find myself usually giving in rather than risk an escalation.
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amother
Floralwhite


 

Post Fri, Dec 06 2019, 12:15 pm
Firstly, it's wonderful that you've already implemented so many great strategies to help him with his behaviors. Positive attention is usually the first go-to among behavioral approaches, and you're reporting that it's helping, so that's great. I'm sure many other amothers would say the same, but have you looked into outside behavioral services? (Preferably ones that will work with both him individually and you as a group.) It's great that you're identifying the problem and want to really address it head on.

Sorry - I know in the short term that's really not helpful, but it might be helpful for future situations.
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mha3484




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Dec 06 2019, 12:21 pm
If I go under the assumption my kid is having a hard time and does not want to go to school then I would not withhold any sort of reward because to me they probably need more kindness from you rather then less. Especially on Fridays when school is a shorter day and usually more fun with shabbos party etc.

Same with bedtime. My most difficult child is also 5 and has kind of an anxious personality type and a little sensory. He needs a lot of help going to sleep. Its just how hashem made him. He likes when I rub his back or his feet. It makes him feel secure and loved. I try and incorporate that need into the time I alot for bedtime just like I know my 9 year old needs to shmmoze with me when the younger kids are asleep. Then I work backwards from there.
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amother
Lavender


 

Post Fri, Dec 06 2019, 12:34 pm
I learnt the hard way to almost never promise a prize (or a trip to dollar store) because if I was not able to go right away some of my kids took it as I lied, didn't keep my promise...
So now I'm super careful to say: we'll try to go or if we can we'll buy...
Especially with strong willed children!!
I don't understand why your son is getting a popsicle AND getting a trip to dollar store? Isn't it a high price for just going to school?
And why no one else can have? No one else went to school?
I think it's fine to offer bribes once in a while but to tell you exactly the terms and condtions of the "deal" is manipulative!
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amother
Orchid


 

Post Fri, Dec 06 2019, 12:57 pm
I have a son similar to yours, what helped was instead of bribing, walking him through the process.e.g ignore him saying he won't go to school, put his shoes on and cheerfully shmooz with him as I walk him to the door. Also, getting therapy for myself to improve my relationship with him.
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#BestBubby




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Dec 06 2019, 1:16 pm
I am old school and believe in consequences - especially when a kid is obviously
demanding prizes.

The problem is in situations where you HAVE to get your child to co-operate so you couldn't do let him stay home and punish.

But in every situation where you can let him not cooperate and teach him that
"it does not pay" - DO THAT! Confiscate all his toys. No nosh.

You have to nip this in the bud.
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amother
Silver


 

Post Fri, Dec 06 2019, 4:59 pm
Honestly, he is probably dealing with a form of PTSD. He can likely be helped by a licensed trauma therapist. It's also very possible that you being sick is a major trigger for his PTSD since the initial trauma was related to a medical emergency.
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FranticFrummie




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Dec 07 2019, 1:27 pm
Why are you so terrified of him having a tantrum? What is the worst thing that will happen? If DH grabs Ds's coat and shoes, and physically walks Ds to the bus stop and puts him on the bus, hands him his shoes, and walks away, what will happen?

Ds needs to see that you are not messing around, but not in punishment OR reward kind of way. If you are not feeling well (and I can truly empathize) then DH needs to get this kid going before he takes off for work.

Remember, nobody can manipulate you without your permission. You are the ones who are letting him make the rules. He is simply doing whatever he wants, and knows that on some level you are afraid of him. It sounds fun, but deep down it's scary, because he feels like there are no boundaries and no one is in charge.

Please start putting your foot down. Not because you are mean, but because in the long run he will feel much safer and more secure in the family dynamic.
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Aylat




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Dec 07 2019, 1:53 pm
I found changing the language helped.
"You are not allowed to tell Mummy, I'll only do X if you give me Y. You can ask me nicely, if I do X, can I please get Y?" That subtly moves the control from him to you (even if practically the same thing is happening).

About the 'promise that no one else gets'. I heard a great parenting thing from (I think) R' Orlowek - make rewards family items. Eg if the child succeeds they get to choose a treat or an outing for the whole family. That encourages siblings to root for each other. When you give out the popsicles to all the kids you can tell them, "say thank you to Danny because you're getting the popsicle because of him!" And that adds an extra layer of positive attention for DS.
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amother
Green


 

Post Sat, Dec 07 2019, 6:36 pm
Phrase it as a reward not as a bribe. Don’t say I’ll give you this if you do this. Say whoever goes to school nicely and on time can earn a special reward (no need to be specific about what it will be).
Follow through with the goodies you promised him this time because you do not want to break his trust. Next time you agree to something, he won’t take it seriously if u break his trust.
Do not allow him to negotiate next time. The parent sets the terms not the child. Stick to the first thing you said. If you offered a popsicle, it’s a popcicle. If you offered a prize from the dollar store, it’s a prize from the dollar. When he says I want both, you say I’m sorry it’s one or the other.
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