Home
Log in / Sign Up
    Private Messages   Advanced Search   Rules   New User Guide   FAQ   Advertise   Contact Us  
Forum -> Fashion and Beauty
Even the Torah only values beautiful women
Previous  1  2  3  4  Next



Post new topic   Reply to topic View latest: 24h 48h 72h

Ruchel




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Dec 12 2019, 12:43 pm
I could see face beauty as meaning a beautiful expression, and physical beauty as healthy and/or fecund. Remember also the times.
Back to top

amother
OP


 

Post Thu, Dec 12 2019, 12:49 pm
BadTichelDay wrote:
Why all this worry about physical beauty? Let me be a bit harsh about it. I don't want to hurt OP, I mean this rather in general terms. Chanukkah is around the corner. Obsession with physical beauty and perfect bodies was the hallmark of Greek Hellenist culture. Hence all those beautiful male and female unclothed statues they left to the world. And their "invention" of athletes and olympic games. The Jewish way should be to focus on middot and service of Hashem, not surface beauty. There is nothing wrong with beauty and it can be a blessing, but it should not be one of our core values or take over our lives. Throw tomatoes if you want, but I am often astounded by all these worried-about-beauty threads on imamother.


You're acting like I made this up. I read the parsha every week now, and it's frankly astounding how often the Torah mentions how beautiful they were. What do we know about Sarah, really? Nearly nothing. She was beautiful, and she looked young, she didn't have a womb, and she laughed, and she had nevuah. And she fought with her maid. That's it.

We know more about Rivka and her life, and even then, the first thing we learn about her is that she's beautiful and didn't sleep with another man.

We are then introduced to Rochel. Who's beautiful. And Leah, who isn't.

If the Torah values women's tznius about all else, then it's weird how fixated it is on the beauty of the imahos. And if it's just talking about the "inside beauty", then there's about a billion other verbs you could use to describe how amazing their middos were. A billion. And we could learn in a Rashi or a medrash how beautiful they were. But the text needs to tell you right away.

Blah blah "core values", and meanwhile, it seems that beauty is an essential ingredient for most of the women in the Torah. And I live in a world where men only prize a woman's beauty. So don't go around clutching pearl necklaces that we care about the very things the Torah cares about and the world around us care about. What am I supposed to be, a saint? I care about the way I look.
Back to top

Ruchel




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Dec 12 2019, 12:50 pm
You don't hear the story behind? It's (also) as a plot setting to teach us something.
Back to top

amother
OP


 

Post Thu, Dec 12 2019, 12:53 pm
ShishKabob wrote:
I definitely think it means literally beautiful. I also think it means that the insides reflected the outsides and so on. What's wrong with some women being more beautiful than other women? It's a fact of life. It doesn't mean that if you're not beautiful on the outside you are not valuable and not beautiful on the inside and so on. It's and added bonus, just like money. Are you worth more because your bank account has more in it? Does it make you a lesser worthy person if you don't?


It's an idea that is pervasive. Beautiful women are also beautiful on the inside.

And are you serious? Do you understand the way the world works? Yes, women who are beautiful are considered more valuable. People who are rich are honored.

ShishKabob wrote:
I'm not sure why, some people have an obsession that they are only worth if a, b or c. Or they try to find something that is mentioned in the Torah and then have a fixation on it. They then try to derive some sort of conclusion that goes along with whatever statement they are trying to make. rant over.
Please see the title of this: The Torah ONLY? Values Beautiful Women?


I'm not sure what you're trying to say. Are you trying to say that I'm fixated on beauty and therefore I'm twisting the Torah to fit my obsession? It's possible. But most of my daily life I wear my clothes from Walmart or hand-me-downs, I don't wear makeup or a wig, and I could care less what shoes I'm wearing. But I see the world around me, and it's a world that values beautiful women. And I try to find solace in the Torah, for not being born beautiful, and I find that I can't find relief there, either. And it hurts.
Back to top

ShishKabob




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Dec 12 2019, 12:54 pm
amother [ OP ] wrote:
You're acting like I made this up. I read the parsha every week now, and it's frankly astounding how often the Torah mentions how beautiful they were. What do we know about Sarah, really? Nearly nothing. She was beautiful, and she looked young, she didn't have a womb, and she laughed, and she had nevuah. And she fought with her maid. That's it.


I know a lot about Sarah Imeinu from the Torah.
She morally supported her dh when he moved from place to place.
She helped her dh with teaching the women about Hashem.
She was very vocal with wanting Hagar and Yishmael out of their house.
She was very tznius and stayed in her tent.
She was zoche to have the ananei hakavod, fresh challis and candles burning the entire week. We learn from her the three mitzvos that a woman is obligated with.
She helped her dh with the mitzvah of hachnosas orchim.
She laughed when she was told that she'll have a child.
She got her period at age 90 and gave birth naturally.
She nursed her baby till 2 years old. and lots and lots of additional very informative information.
Back to top

amother
OP


 

Post Thu, Dec 12 2019, 12:54 pm
Ruchel wrote:
You don't hear the story behind? It's (also) as a plot setting to teach us something.


If she was three years old, there's nothing to teach us. She was surrounded by gross men who were promiscuous. Great. So she didn't have relations before marriage. Rochel and Leah grew up in the same household. It doesn't talk about them like that.
Back to top

ShishKabob




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Dec 12 2019, 12:59 pm
OP, I'm sorry that you feel this way, really. I'm a believer that you can find every single thing in the Torah. You can find your solace as well. You just have to ask the right people and trust me, they'll be able to give you a bunch of satisfying answers. Maybe you don't have access to that information, it may be in places other than The Five Books. Bhatzlocha
And you probably are beautiful. Idk why you don't view yourself as such.
You can look stunning in outfits from Walmart.
And makeup does enhance beauty.
Back to top

Ruchel




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Dec 12 2019, 1:01 pm
amother [ OP ] wrote:
I'm not sure what you're trying to say. Are you trying to say that I'm fixated on beauty and therefore I'm twisting the Torah to fit my obsession? It's possible. But most of my daily life I wear my clothes from Walmart or hand-me-downs, I don't wear makeup or a wig, and I could care less what shoes I'm wearing. But I see the world around me, and it's a world that values beautiful women. And I try to find solace in the Torah, for not being born beautiful, and I find that I can't find relief there, either. And it hurts.


Did you read, huh, "their lady" of Paris?
Esmeralda was beautiful hence she didn't need beautiful clothes, except in the eyes of jealous women (she also ends up [spoiler])
Back to top

amother
Wheat


 

Post Thu, Dec 12 2019, 2:06 pm
One thing I've learned over the years as a photographer is that beauty is definitely in the attitude. I wish I could show you pictures of my clients before and after I gave them a compliment and the difference is black and white.

Try it yourself: take a picture of a friend without telling her anything, then look at your camera as if to look at the picture you just took and say "wow, you look amazing" then quickly snap another picture. You'll see it right there: in the second picture, she will look beautiful.

Positive thoughts, the way you carry yourself, being kind...those are all things that make women look physically beautiful.
Back to top

Brownies




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Dec 12 2019, 3:12 pm
Ema of 4 wrote:
I remember learning that her beauty at 100 was like the beauty of a 20 year old, and her innocence at 20 was like the innocence of a 7 year old. Sara was most definitely a beautiful woman.


Actually, what Rashi says is that at 100 her innocence was like the innocence of a 20 year old, who is not yet punishable for his/her sins; and that her beauty at 20 was like the beauty of a 7 year old. It’s very interesting, especially in the context of this discussion, as a 7 year old with gappy teeth etc is usually more cute than beautiful whereas a 20 year old is often at the prime of her beauty conventionally.

Logically, the way you wrote it above would seem to make more sense. I always wondered about it. Maybe the beauty of a 7 year old is in her complete innocence?
Back to top

BadTichelDay




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Dec 12 2019, 3:40 pm
amother [ OP ] wrote:
You're acting like I made this up.

[...]

Blah blah "core values", and meanwhile, it seems that beauty is an essential ingredient for most of the women in the Torah. And I live in a world where men only prize a woman's beauty. So don't go around clutching pearl necklaces that we care about the very things the Torah cares about and the world around us care about. What am I supposed to be, a saint? I care about the way I look.



You didn't make it up but your way of looking at the Parasha is obviously different from mine. I never even noticed how often beauty of women is mentioned - maybe because I don't care much for beauty. People tend to see what's important for them. I've never been beautiful in the general sense and I've never really cared about it - I'm more the nerdy book loving type, I guess. I never thought that I'm worth less because of my looks (or the lack thereof) - my parents raised me with the concept that the value of a person is on the inside and not the outside.
You wrote that you don't wear a sheitel don't use make-up and wear inexpensive clothes. As you can guess from my sn, I'm not a sheitel wearer either and I'm actually a fan of inexpensive clothes. However, I still try to make the best of what I have, but without tearing my heart out over it - I have started using inexpensive make-up every day since I've found that I'm ageing a bit. Maybe it can't fix ugly Hiding but it does a pretty good job on looking younger while it's on. So I do it as a useful thing. Have you considered trying it?

As far as men are concerned - why the heck should I care? I've got one man I'm married to and who prizes me whatever I look like, even when I'm in baggy pyjamas with stringy hair and dark shadows under my eyes first thing in the morning. I've got a job where I get paid and valued for my work and achievements and not for my looks. I DON'T WANT "approval" from random idiots on the street/in shul/at simchas. The kind of men who measure the value of a woman in tems of beauty (read: meat quality) are not the people I want to have anything to do with. They are bad people as far as I'm concerned, and I think that in a way I'm much better than them (okay, maybe that's the bad middah of arrogance on my side).

You wrote that you care about the way you look - is there a way to turn that care into positive energy to improve your looks and attitude, instead of eating your heart out and getting annoyed about the beauty of women who lived thousands of year ago? Anyway, they are your ancestors. A tiny bit of them is inside you. Find it and let it turn you beautiful.
Back to top

Ema of 5




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Dec 12 2019, 4:48 pm
Brownies wrote:
Actually, what Rashi says is that at 100 her innocence was like the innocence of a 20 year old, who is not yet punishable for his/her sins; and that her beauty at 20 was like the beauty of a 7 year old. It’s very interesting, especially in the context of this discussion, as a 7 year old with gappy teeth etc is usually more cute than beautiful whereas a 20 year old is often at the prime of her beauty conventionally.

Logically, the way you wrote it above would seem to make more sense. I always wondered about it. Maybe the beauty of a 7 year old is in her complete innocence?

You’re right, I mixed up the order. And now that you are saying it, I ALSO learned the second part of what you wrote, that her innocence WAS part of her beauty. But only part. She was physically beautiful as well, whatever that means. (As someone else said, maybe it was based on the times)
Back to top

amother
Lime


 

Post Thu, Dec 12 2019, 5:00 pm
OP, do you believe with 100% unwavering certainty that the Torah is divine and that god dictated the words to Moshe? Or are you a little shaky about this?
I know a handful of people who struggle with this. Sefer beraishes has many stories that are beyond illogical. For those that believe 100% the Torah is divine, any answer will do. There's no such thing as a bad answer. The medrash or rashi explain it......and now it's all good.
For those that struggle with the divinity of the Torah, the exact type of question your asking (as well as the weak answers) only lead down the road to even more uncertainty about the torah.
Back to top

zaq




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Dec 12 2019, 8:31 pm
OP has presented two issues, related but separate, and she had not clarified which she wants help with and what kind of help she wants.

1. Why does the Torah harp on the beauty of the Imahot and make it appear as if it values only beautiful women? ( An allegation I believe is incorrect and unjust, as off the top of my head I could think of several great women whose looks were not mentioned at all. Ok, I goofed with Abigail so we’ll lump her in with the Imahot, but that still leaves the others. If I spent some time reading through all of Tanach I could find a few more, surely. But this question belongs in a different forum.


2. OP feels unbeautiful. Does she want practical advice on how to appear more attractive, for which Fashion and Beauty is the right forum; does she want us to “prove” to her that she’s really beautiful because her neshama is beautiful; does she want us to tell her that, unlovely though she may be, or think she is, she can overcome that handicap and live a full, normal, productive life?

A lot of us are trying to answer both at once. Not only does that not work, but it doesn’t even make sense. Answer al rishon rishon va-al acharon, acharon.

I am not a social worker and I’m not going to try to persuade someone who feels unlovely that her inner beauty shines through. Nor am I going to insult the woman’s intelligence by handing her claptrap about “the Torah meant spiritual beauty.” In the words of my eleventh grade Chumash teacher, evidently weary of her students’ highly improbable flights of fancy in explaining the text : “Don’t ignore the pshat!”

So: why does the Chumash, which we believe never includes so much as an extraneous letter, make a point of mentioning Sarah, Rivka, Rachel’s beauty? As an adult I figured out that in Sarah’s and Rachel’s cases their looks were part of the story, but Rivka? Not so much.

No, I don’t believe the reference is to character. Or not ONLY character. Yefat mar’eh means literally “of goodly appearance”. I don’t see how one can avoid that reality no matter how many layers upon inspiring layers of commentary are piled on top.

OTOH, OP, I reject categorically your conclusion that the Torah values women only for their looks. I think their physical beauty is mentioned only to highlight their virtue. The physical beauty is real, and the virtue is real, and they are two separate characteristics. One is not a euphemism for the other.

If their beauty were not mentioned, critics might trivialize their virtue by saying “meh, they must have been meeskeits—of course they were virtuous. Who would bother trying to corrupt them? What opportunities did they have to be bad?”

On the other hand, exceptionally good-looking people have lots of opportunity to be corrupted. Lots of temptation to show off their good looks in revealing clothing, or to use their looks and their s@xuality for personal gain or to control people. Lots and lots of scope for arrogance, cliquishness, entitlement, putting down those who are less attractive. Obviously the Imahot didn’t do any of that, and given the environment in which they lived, that’s pretty remarkable.

That’s my take and I’m sticking to it.
Back to top

gold2




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Dec 13 2019, 3:32 am
Actually the gemara says that bnos yisroel are beautiful. If anyone has the exact source feel free to post.
They are talking about ALL of us, not just the models.

I once went to a shiur, the woman was saying that we have a tendency to feel bad about how we look, but Jewish women are beautiful as the gemara says and that applies to everyone, it's a fact. So feel good - you look great!! It is a feminine trait to feel good and look good, obviously we should make ourselves look good, but you have to know that you do have that chein and beauty.

Btw I heard on a non jewish radio station years ago a study on who are the most beautiful women in the world. Ppl were calling up trying to guess- well, ppl were guessing, the Italians? Spanish? Americans? Russians? They were guessing every nationality in the world. You won't believe who won and no one came up with it! The Israelis:) So that sort of backs it up, which is amazing

Another thing, a husband loves his wife b/c she is his not b/c of her looks, (chein ishah al baalah) which is not to do with physical looks but I am just adding it in.
Back to top

etky




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Dec 13 2019, 4:06 am
I'm with Zaq. OP, I totally disagree with your premise.
Regarding Rivka - so what that the Torah parenthetically mentions that she is good looking? Maybe it was related from the POV of Eliezer and was the reason that Rivka initially caught his attention. But the emphasis in the narrative is on her remarkable, outstanding chessed, which was the quality upon which her candidacy as a bride for Yitzhak hinged and on her willingness to leave her family and accompany Eliezer to the unknown. Those were the qualities that made her a worthy bride for Yitzhak,
Sara and Rachel's beauty is vital to the narrative, as Zaq said. BTW also Rivka's beauty is an essential aspect in the encounter with Avimelech in Grar.
Regarding Leah - her lack of beauty perhaps explains Ya'acov's lesser interest in her in comparison to Rachel. Such is life. But this certainly does not make her less worthy in the Torah's POV. She is the one whose relationship with Hashem (reflected in the names she gives her children) merits her many offspring whereas Rachel struggles to establish a relationship with Hashem and ultimately loses melucha and kehunah to Leah, pays with her life and is not even buried next to Ya'acov.
I would like to add Ruth - the ancestor of David Hamelech and from whom mashiach will issue - to the list of women whose physical appearance is not mentioned in Tanach. There is in fact an opinion that Eshet Chayil, including the famous line שקר החן והבל היופי was written as a eulogy for Ruth.
The Torah describes physical beauty when it is part of the story's exposition. It doesn't idealize beauty or judge people on the basis of their looks.
Back to top

Ruchel




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Dec 13 2019, 4:47 am
EVERYONE who cares notices the israeli
and c'v the plot of the "beautiful Jewess" abounded before
I think Leah was beautiful to someone else - remember Rachel was the one he wanted.
Back to top

amother
OP


 

Post Fri, Dec 13 2019, 3:12 pm
zaq wrote:
OP has presented two issues, related but separate, and she had not clarified which she wants help with and what kind of help she wants.

1. Why does the Torah harp on the beauty of the Imahot and make it appear as if it values only beautiful women? ( An allegation I believe is incorrect and unjust, as off the top of my head I could think of several great women whose looks were not mentioned at all. Ok, I goofed with Abigail so we’ll lump her in with the Imahot, but that still leaves the others. If I spent some time reading through all of Tanach I could find a few more, surely. But this question belongs in a different forum.


2. OP feels unbeautiful. Does she want practical advice on how to appear more attractive, for which Fashion and Beauty is the right forum; does she want us to “prove” to her that she’s really beautiful because her neshama is beautiful; does she want us to tell her that, unlovely though she may be, or think she is, she can overcome that handicap and live a full, normal, productive life?

I am not a social worker and I’m not going to try to persuade someone who feels unlovely that her inner beauty shines through. Nor am I going to insult the woman’s intelligence by handing her claptrap about “the Torah meant spiritual beauty.” In the words of my eleventh grade Chumash teacher, evidently weary of her students’ highly improbable flights of fancy in explaining the text : “Don’t ignore the pshat!”

So: why does the Chumash, which we believe never includes so much as an extraneous letter, make a point of mentioning Sarah, Rivka, Rachel’s beauty? As an adult I figured out that in Sarah’s and Rachel’s cases their looks were part of the story, but Rivka? Not so much.

No, I don’t believe the reference is to character. Or not ONLY character. Yefat mar’eh means literally “of goodly appearance”. I don’t see how one can avoid that reality no matter how many layers upon inspiring layers of commentary are piled on top.

OTOH, OP, I reject categorically your conclusion that the Torah values women only for their looks. I think their physical beauty is mentioned only to highlight their virtue. The physical beauty is real, and the virtue is real, and they are two separate characteristics. One is not a euphemism for the other.


Thank you, Zaq, for this really thoughtful post.

With regards to #1, it's tied to #2.... I think that the Torah mentioning their physical beauty is just something I took for granted. You learn the parsha in 1st grade and you don't question it, even years later. It just is.

And then one day you're 40 years old, and you look in the mirror and your face is...changed. You have fine lines. You have grey hairs. You're done having children. People openly say in front of you that you're part of the "older crowd", and they're looking for the "young chevra". Your children are in shidduchim, and no one thinks you're a young looking mother. And I think Botox is stupid and I can't get a new face.

And suddenly, it's like your time is done. I can't explain it. We were raised our whole lives to be beautiful and get married, and have kids, and that defined us. Every single shiur, aside from the billions about tznius, is about these relationships, and suddenly it's just over.

I resent someone implying that I don't believe that Torah is from Hashem, and yet there are so many things that just don't make sense to me. Did our meforshim just shrug their shoulders every time they came across something that didn't make sense, and say "well, it's Torah MiSinai!"

So maybe this is my midlife crisis, but I look to the Torah to understand what to do in these times, and I find. . .nothing. Granted, the Torah only focuses on people during key moments in their lives, but it gives the impression that there's not much life left after the next generation gets married. Avraham - he had all these exciting things occur, and then Yitzchak gets married and the Torah sums up the rest of Avraham's life in two sentences. (And then he had more kids and he also died 30 years later). And the Torah focuses on these women only in the prime of their lives. Their beautiful, child-bearing years.

I can see what you're saying, Zaq. That the beauty is purposeful to the story, and the story is that they were uncorrupted. It's interesting to note that Yosef looked like Yaakov, and the Torah mentions Yosef's beauty and not Yaakov's. It's possible that again, this showed the depth of his nisayon with Eyshes Potiphar.

That helps. Thanks.
Back to top

goodmorning




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Dec 13 2019, 3:33 pm
amother [ OP ] wrote:

So maybe this is my midlife crisis, but I look to the Torah to understand what to do in these times, and I find. . .nothing. Granted, the Torah only focuses on people during key moments in their lives, but it gives the impression that there's not much life left after the next generation gets married. Avraham - he had all these exciting things occur, and then Yitzchak gets married and the Torah sums up the rest of Avraham's life in two sentences. (And then he had more kids and he also died 30 years later). And the Torah focuses on these women only in the prime of their lives. Their beautiful, child-bearing years.


(Sarah was 65 when Avraham stated that she was beautiful.)
Back to top

amother
Lavender


 

Post Fri, Dec 13 2019, 3:58 pm
L K wrote:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KMXZy_koAuk

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yiQIbbp3G5I

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=IPto06t9mxI


Thank G-d, I don't think I am ugly, but I even so, where can I sign up!
Back to top
Page 3 of 4 Previous  1  2  3  4  Next Recent Topics




Post new topic   Reply to topic    Forum -> Fashion and Beauty

Related Topics Replies Last Post
S/O Women and megilla
by corolla
2 Mon, Mar 25 2024, 3:40 pm View last post
Therapy/purim Torah
by effess
4 Fri, Mar 22 2024, 12:17 am View last post
Beautiful! -Israeli Comedian Urges others To Keep Shabbos
by ddmom
0 Wed, Mar 20 2024, 7:23 am View last post
List of frum women's clothing websites
by amother
6 Thu, Mar 14 2024, 5:19 pm View last post
Education level? - talmud torah d monsey cheder
by amother
0 Sun, Mar 10 2024, 1:12 pm View last post