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Why are there so many frum anti-vaxxers?
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#BestBubby




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Dec 12 2019, 11:40 am
amother [ Aquamarine ] wrote:
children did not stop dying from disease before vaccines - that is clear in the chart.




The Chart DID show that the death rate from measles dropped to near zero
BEFORE Measles vaccine was invented.

The other lines showed infant deaths from all causes which continued to drop after the vaccine because of advances in medical treatment (not vaccines).
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amother
Aquamarine


 

Post Thu, Dec 12 2019, 11:42 am
#BestBubby wrote:
Wrong. Many news articles how it is upper class white college-educated who are
the anti-vaxxers. Here is one https://www.inquirer.com/news/......html

Anti-vaccine parents are often white, college-educated, ‘Whole Foods moms’

If you’re against vaccinating your child, there’s a good chance you’re a college-educated white woman making decent money.

The rebel forces in America’s latest culture war — the so-called anti-vaxxers — are often described as middle- and upper-class women who breast-feed their children, shop at Whole Foods, endlessly scour the web for vaccine-related conversation, and believe that their thinking supersedes that of doctors. Typically their families earn more than $75,000 a year


This thread was about frum anti-vaxxers.

The anti-vaxxing frum community includes a large subset who do not attend college.
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amother
Blush


 

Post Thu, Dec 12 2019, 11:46 am
#BestBubby wrote:


The Chart DID show that the death rate from measles dropped to near zero
BEFORE Measles vaccine was invented.

The other lines showed infant deaths from all causes which continued to drop after the vaccine because of advances in medical treatment (not vaccines).

There's more to the world than England and Wales. I know how to Google too.
Take a look at this - info from the US Census.
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amother
Aquamarine


 

Post Thu, Dec 12 2019, 11:47 am
#BestBubby wrote:


The Chart DID show that the death rate from measles dropped to near zero
BEFORE Measles vaccine was invented.

The other lines showed infant deaths from all causes which continued to drop after the vaccine because of advances in medical treatment (not vaccines).


I am responding to your claim. "children stopped dying from disease - BEFORE vaccines". This is false conclusion from the chart. Children have not stopped dying from disease.

Infant mortality is trending downwards. Baruch Hashem. Death from measles also trending to zero - Baruch Hashem.

Where is your chart on measles cases prior to and post vaccine? Or chart on complications from measles post and prior to vaccine? (edit - I see Blush found one)
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#BestBubby




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Dec 12 2019, 11:55 am
amother [ Blush ] wrote:
There's more to the world than England and Wales. I know how to Google too.
Take a look at this - info from the US Census.


[/img]


Yes, take a look at YOUR chart, Blush. It only starts from 1950.

As noted in MY chart which starts from 1900, the BIGGEST drop in measles deaths happened BEFORE 1950. Your chart HIDES that fact by starting in........1950!
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amother
Aquamarine


 

Post Thu, Dec 12 2019, 12:00 pm
#BestBubby wrote:
[/img]


Yes, take a look at YOUR chart, Blush. It only starts from 1950.

As noted in MY chart which starts from 1900, the BIGGEST drop in measles deaths happened BEFORE 1950. Your chart HIDES that fact by starting in........1950!


Its not YOUR chart. YOU did not publish the chart. The chart is not hiding things. The chart is not making arguments.
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#BestBubby




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Dec 12 2019, 12:19 pm
amother [ Aquamarine ] wrote:
Its not YOUR chart. YOU did not publish the chart. The chart is not hiding things. The chart is not making arguments.


The chart I posted starts from 1900 - and shows the BIGGEST drop in deaths from measles happened by 1950 - when nearly the whole population had enough food, clean water, flush toilets, running water, no overcrowding. THAT is what was responsible for the biggest drop in Measles deaths - not the Measles Vaccine which was not invented until 1963.

The chart Blush posted starts from 1950 - which HIDES the fact that the biggest drop in Measles fatalities happened BEFORE 1950.
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#BestBubby




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Dec 12 2019, 12:31 pm
Per the CDC (government) before the measles vaccine there were
3-4 million cases of measles and about 400 deaths from measles.

That is a death rate of 1:10,000 which is about the same rate as
children dying in car accidents - 1:8,000. And nobody is hysterically afraid
to put their child in a car.

After vaccination the deaths from measles is 0.
But the deaths following vaccines was 430 in 2016 - about the same number
of deaths from measles before the vaccine. And the Department of Health admits that adverse vaccine reactions are extremely UNDER REPORTED - only
1% - 10% so the death rate from vaccines can be much higher than the death
rate from measles.

More concerning is the extremely high rate of SICK Children in US - this is the sickest children in history. And for the first time in US History the LIFE SPAN is dropping -this started in 2014. So the first generation to be multiple vaxxed is living shorter (starting from 1950) than the UNvaxxed gernation (only got one vaccine - small pox). And the generation from 1990 is when the CDC QUADRUPLED - FOUR TIMES - the vaccine schedule and is very sick and will have an even shorter life-span than the first multiple vaxxed kids of the 1950s.

But don't try to think for yourselves - you are too dumb.
Just TRUST the government - they are good people who care so much about you.
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#BestBubby




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Dec 12 2019, 12:39 pm
amother [ Aquamarine ] wrote:
I am responding to your claim. "children stopped dying from disease - BEFORE vaccines". This is false conclusion from the chart. Children have not stopped dying from disease.

Infant mortality is trending downwards. Baruch Hashem. Death from measles also trending to zero - Baruch Hashem.

Where is your chart on measles cases prior to and post vaccine? Or chart on complications from measles post and prior to vaccine? (edit - I see Blush found one)


You comment is SOOOOOOOOOOOO wrong. The chart I posted shows the death rate before and after vaccines. The chart Blush posted only shows the death rate from 1950 - when the death rate was near zero.

Neither chart shows the complication rate. Think before you post.
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amother
Aquamarine


 

Post Thu, Dec 12 2019, 1:22 pm
#BestBubby wrote:
You comment is SOOOOOOOOOOOO wrong. The chart I posted shows the death rate before and after vaccines. The chart Blush posted only shows the death rate from 1950 - when the death rate was near zero.

Neither chart shows the complication rate. Think before you post.


You are correct - the chart that Blush brought to this discussion did not show complications from measles - it showed cases of measles. There will be another chart to show you the rate of complications from each case of measles. Like not "deaths per case of measles, complications per case of measles".

What is the argument that you are making that is supported by the chart that you provided? and which claim made by another poster does it refute?

Because if it was this one
Quote:
Before we had vaccinations children died at young age often from major illnesses.
the chart you posted supports that claim, not refutes it.
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eschaya




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Dec 13 2019, 9:32 am
(not reading through the whole thread, no interest in debating the same things with the same people again and again)
Just 1 point I try to make repeatedly here:
anti vaxx charts show mortality. Mortality from EVERYTHING began to improve with the advent of better medical care and hygiene. If you fell out of a window, you were more likely to die in the 19th century than you would be today. Same with infectious diseases. And pneumonia and ruptured appendix. This has nothing to do with vaccines.
CDC and the charts that most people use when looking at vaccine preventable diseases show INCIDENCE. Because most of us care that people/kids don't get sick at all. We don't want our children to suffer from VPD, from the non-terminal but unpleasant or possibly even life-altering sequelae of VPD.
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amother
Navy


 

Post Fri, Dec 13 2019, 9:37 am
eschaya wrote:
(not reading through the whole thread, no interest in debating the same things with the same people again and again)
Just 1 point I try to make repeatedly here:
anti vaxx charts show mortality. Mortality from EVERYTHING began to improve with the advent of better medical care and hygiene. If you fell out of a window, you were more likely to die in the 19th century than you would be today. Same with infectious diseases. And pneumonia and ruptured appendix. This has nothing to do with vaccines.
CDC and the charts that most people use when looking at vaccine preventable diseases show INCIDENCE. Because most of us care that people/kids don't get sick at all. We don't want our children to suffer from VPD, from the non-terminal but unpleasant or possibly even life-altering sequelae of VPD.
You're conveniently forgetting that vaccines carry risks too.
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eschaya




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Dec 13 2019, 10:23 am
amother [ Navy ] wrote:
You're conveniently forgetting that vaccines carry risks too.


Very, very minuscule level of risk. Vaccines are held to a much higher standard with regard to risk/benefit because, as anti-vaxxers love to point out, they are given in a preventative fashion. Believe you me, the scientific world is aware of this as well. You can look up on the WHO or CDC to get actual numbers and statistics of risks. And no, reports to VAERS are not factual statistics of actual adverse events.
For example (and this is pulled from the WHO vaccine safety initiative), the risk of encephalitis after the MMR is 1 per million. The rate of anaphylaxis is about the same, as is the risk of aseptic meningitis when the Jeryl-Lyn strain is used (which is the type used in the US). The risk of thrombocytopenia is 1/30,000. The risk of a febrile seizure is definitely higher at 1/2000 to 1/3000, but although it is scary, it is not life-threatening and is not the same as epilepsy or an increased risk of seizures in the future.

I completely agree that there are (teeny) risks involved in vaccines. There are also risks involved in sending your kid on a school bus, and eating a new fruit for the first time, and swimming. And sitting in your house all day, and using "natural" products, and in everyday activities (here are your chances of dying, forget about mere adverse events, in sports and transportation and lifestyle https://www.mentalfloss.com/ar.....chart). We don't become incapacitated by the risks involved in living; we constantly make risk/benefit analysis. Sometimes we make decisions based on our "gut" that are accurate, and oftentimes our "gut/intuition" is not accurate. It's hard, but sometimes we have to put our gut-feeling aside and listen to the numbers. Like, who would have thought that canoeing is more dangerous than bungee jumping?


anyway, I'm bowing out now, I will not return to this thread because no answer or data will be good enough for anti-vaxxers. We've had these discussions over and over again.
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