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Using Yiddish name--should we keep unusual spelling?
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lifesagift




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Dec 23 2019, 10:05 am
lifesagift wrote:
Exactly my answer
The chasidishe pronunciation for tzerei is the same as pasach followed by yud, as my example of mordechai, which uses 1 yud. What don't you understand?

Suppose there was a pasach under the shin, followed by yud. It would be pronounced as an I sound in every dialect I know, as sheindy as opposed to shaindy.
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nchr




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Dec 23 2019, 10:16 am
lifesagift wrote:
Suppose there was a pasach under the shin, followed by yud. It would be pronounced as an I sound in every dialect I know, as sheindy as opposed to shaindy.


Right, but there are plenty of people who pronounce Shaindel with a tzeirei. It is definitely a tzeirei, but the real spelling according to seforim etc. is still שינדל with one yud as is also the case with ריזל etc. It is one of the reason why many parents of Shaindel's joking will say "shin-del" to be funny like the parents of some Blima's saying Bloymoo (but that is obviously a certain type of joker parent - a category I do fall into).

And interestingly enough, a name with a pasach is Pia פייא and that happens to be correctly spelled Pei Yud Yud Alef so go figure (but again, this name is not Yiddish so different rules..)
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lifesagift




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Dec 23 2019, 10:22 am
It's possible the name started off as sheindel then morphed into shaindel in a different country and got the extra yud, just speculating, I wouldn't know
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Ruchel




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Dec 23 2019, 11:09 am
I've just checked. My great uncl ah has two yuds on his mother's name.
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nchr




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Dec 23 2019, 11:09 am
BTW I just looked into the Bais Shmuel and it is pretty confusing, so would definitely ask someone if its an unusual name, but it appears that he spells Fraidel with two yuds, but Faiga/faigel with one. Perel with a yud inbetween the reish and the lamed. Raitzel with two yuds, but Raizel with one. Shaina with one yud, Shaindel with on yud as שינדל but then he goes on to list שונדיל with one yud and another yud inbetween the daled and lamed which I guess you should ask about. Kayla is also spelled there with one yud, but Braindel has two... There are probably other lists. Many names are not even there like ettel..
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thanks




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Dec 23 2019, 11:18 pm
lifesagift wrote:
Exactly my answer
The chasidishe pronunciation for tzerei is the same as pasach followed by yud, as my example of mordechai, which uses 1 yud. What don't you understand?


In Hebrew, the vowels are the nekudos (or nekudot). When there are no nekudos, they are implied.
In Yiddish, the vowels are represented by specific letters.

So the tzeirei sound (long I or long a depending what dialect) is written in Yiddish as two yuds. Mordechai is Hebrew name, spelled in Hebrew, has no relevance.

lifesagift wrote:
Suppose there was a pasach under the shin, followed by yud. It would be pronounced as an I sound in every dialect I know, as sheindy as opposed to shaindy.


A "pasach" is a vowel in Hebrew/lashon kodesh. Yiddish has vowels like the English language. In Yiddish, certain letters are vowels. So you can't suppose a "pasach" for a yiddish word. It's a symbol that does not exist in Yiddish. (People do put the symbol vowels in Yiddish, but it is totally redundant, and a recent add-on.)


Last edited by thanks on Tue, Dec 24 2019, 12:41 am; edited 2 times in total
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lifesagift




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Dec 23 2019, 11:56 pm
So theoretically could sheindel be originating from another language like Arabic? Just speculating..
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thanks




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Dec 24 2019, 12:20 am
lifesagift wrote:
So theoretically could sheindel be originating from another language like Arabic? Just speculating..


No. Shaindel comes from the German word schon, beautiful. No reason to think there is any other origin. Any Yiddish speaking person can tell you "shain" or "shine" (depending on dialect) means beautiful. No reason to think there is any other origin.
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thanks




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Dec 24 2019, 12:31 am
nchr wrote:
No that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that the YIDDISH language has no place on a halachic document like a get. I've also just heard that two yuds are a problem because it is Hashem's name,


I hear your point. It is possible, that all the rules of vowels in Yiddish are for spelling and writing things in Yiddish. For example, I've seen the name Yehuda with an Aleph at the end. That spelling is perfectly phoneticly spelled in Yiddish. Spelled in Hebrew, it for sure has a hey at the end (obviously, it's in the Chumash that way). So maybe the converse is true:
Names that originate in Yiddish have a different way of spelling them in Hebrew/Lashon Kodesh, the language a get it written. That's the only explanation I have.


Last edited by thanks on Tue, Dec 24 2019, 12:43 am; edited 1 time in total
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thanks




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Dec 24 2019, 12:35 am
nchr wrote:
Also, Yiddish spelling today was not necessarily the case 100 years ago (if you've ever looked at old writings etc. you'll see that).

And also, spelling is pretty irrelevant unless we're talking about a get.


I don't think this is true, and I've seen old letters and documents. Anyone educated and literate would have spelled words in Yiddish the way they sound. Obviously, languages develop, so there may have been some differences, especially in different dialects

If you try to read mid evil English, the words are very different. Same is true about Yiddish (which evolved from mid evil German).
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amother
Seashell


 

Post Tue, Dec 24 2019, 12:40 am
My DH is mesader kiddushin quite often and I will tell you what he does, based on conversations with mesadrei gittin.

If the name is pronouned 'Shine'del he uses two yuds. If Shaindel, one yud. Similary for Fay-ga, one yud, will FIE ga, two yuds. Ray-zel, one yud. RYEzel, two yuds.

So this is where many of you are hearing about different spellings. He doesn't care what the bubbe's matzevah said, he cares how the current kallah's name is pronounced.

Same with LAYbel - one yud, LIEbel, two yuds.
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thanks




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Dec 24 2019, 12:53 am
amother [ Seashell ] wrote:
My DH is mesader kiddushin quite often and I will tell you what he does, based on conversations with mesadrei gittin.

If the name is pronouned 'Shine'del he uses two yuds. If Shaindel, one yud. Similary for Fay-ga, one yud, will FIE ga, two yuds. Ray-zel, one yud. RYEzel, two yuds.

So this is where many of you are hearing about different spellings. He doesn't care what the bubbe's matzevah said, he cares how the current kallah's name is pronounced.

Same with LAYbel - one yud, LIEbel, two yuds.


This is very interesting, thank you for posting.

I wonder why this is so. The two yuds are pronounced differently in different Yiddish dialects. There could be one spelling for different sounds based on dialect.

Nice, in Yiddish is שיין - pronounced shayn or shine. One spelling, two sounds.
Take the name לאה. It can be pronounced Lay-a or Li-ya. Once spelling, pronounced two ways.

In Yiddish, one yud is a chirik, short I, as in א ביסל (a little) or טיש (a table). That vowel sound is pretty universal for all yiddish speakers.

How was it decided that long I is two yuds and long a is one? Same word pronounced differently should be spelled the same. Similarly, a Hebrew name would be spelled one way, and pronounced differently by different people. Two yuds seems like the perfect way to spell Shaindel or Shine-dle. The pronunciation is up to the reader. It's the same name.

Can you ask him to explain.
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amother
Yellow


 

Post Tue, Dec 24 2019, 7:23 am
thanks wrote:
This is very interesting, thank you for posting.

I wonder why this is so. The two yuds are pronounced differently in different Yiddish dialects. There could be one spelling for different sounds based on dialect.

Nice, in Yiddish is שיין - pronounced shayn or shine. One spelling, two sounds.
Take the name לאה. It can be pronounced Lay-a or Li-ya. Once spelling, pronounced two ways.

In Yiddish, one yud is a chirik, short I, as in א ביסל (a little) or טיש (a table). That vowel sound is pretty universal for all yiddish speakers.

How was it decided that long I is two yuds and long a is one? Same word pronounced differently should be spelled the same. Similarly, a Hebrew name would be spelled one way, and pronounced differently by different people. Two yuds seems like the perfect way to spell Shaindel or Shine-dle. The pronunciation is up to the reader. It's the same name.

Can you ask him to explain.


FYI, In Satmar Vayoel Moshe KJ which pronounces it rYzel and shYndel when we asked a dayan about our names before graduation it came back with ONE yud.
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