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Dream catchers

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amother

Sat, Jan 11 2020, 7:24 pm

Is there anything wrong with them as far as Yiddishkeit is concerned? It’s just not something I have ever come across in a frum home and wondered if there is a reason for that?

thunderstorm

Sat, Jan 11 2020, 7:28 pm

The idea of the dream catcher is to “catch” bad dreams into its net so that you have a feeling of a safe night’s sleep. In Yiddishkeit we say Shema Yisroel. We don’t believe in “things” protecting us.

amother

Sat, Jan 11 2020, 7:44 pm

thunderstorm wrote:

That makes sense. Thank you for being clear.

zaq

Sat, Jan 11 2020, 8:11 pm

Really, thunderstorm? How about mezuzot? Lubavitcher is big on checking yours if you’re having tzuris. How about red ribbons against ayin hara? You have some very frum people who hold by this in a big way. How about a red stone to protect against miscarriage, ditto? You see imas asking where to get these all the time. Always right wing frum, btw. MO, which tends to be rationalist and less woo-woo than RW frum.

Actually I agree with you. Authentic Judaism rejects all these things. (Well, not the mitzvah of mezuzah, chas vechalilah, but the idea that it’s the physical mezuzah that protects the inhabitants of tbe house.) Yes, I know I’m going to offend an awful lot of ladies here who think their red ribbons and red stones are an authentic Jewish tradition straight from Sarah Imenu and could not possibly have been adapted or adopted from foreign nations. Too bad.

Human nature likes objects one can see and feel. That’s what made Judaism so radically different and so untenable to the nations: worshipping a Deity that was invisible and would allow no images or representations of Itself was something they could not and would not accept.

And that I think, is one of the factors that made idolatry so seductive: the images that one could see and/or touch and relate to. People have a hard time relating to the invisible.

I don’t know if dream catchers are a religious symbol equivalent to a cross or an ankh, a religious ritual object, or a cultural object of no religious significance. AYLOR.

SuperWify

Sat, Jan 11 2020, 8:25 pm

I’ve never really understood them.. Maybe I’m missing some vital understanding, how does a net catch a bad dream? Does anyone really believe in it or is it like a symbol?

bigsis144

Sat, Jan 11 2020, 8:31 pm

How does a mezuzah protect a house?

I assume it’s more symbolic to the Native Americans who have that as part of their culture.

That being said, most dream catchers are made cheaply in factories for aesthetic, non-religious purposes (#culturalappropriation). I don’t know how that would affect their halachic status as possible symbols of avoda zara. They aren’t objects of actual worship, but then again, neither is a cross...

thunderstorm

Sat, Jan 11 2020, 8:34 pm

This is where the dream catcher originated.

Ojibwa Legend & Story of the Dream catcher
Ancient legends about the history and origin of the dreamcatcher exist among several Native American tribes, but chiefly through the Ojibwe and Lakota nations. While many cultures find spiders to be creepy crawlers, the Ojibwe people found them to be a symbol of protection and comfort. According to the Ojibwa story, a mystical and maternal "Spider Woman" served as the spiritual protector for the tribe, especially for young children, kids and babies. As the Ojibwe people continued to grow and spread out across the land, The Spider Woman found it difficult to continue to protect and watch over all the members of the tribe as they migrated farther and farther away. This is why she created the first dreamcatcher. Following her example, mothers and grandmothers would recreate the maternal keepsake as a means of mystically protecting their children and families from afar.

I was Googling it and came across many Christians asking if it was ok for a Christian home to have a dream catcher even for just a piece of art and the answers were it’s a grey area.

It’s pretty clear that this some form of religious or spiritual symbol and not for a Yiddish home.

trixx

Sat, Jan 11 2020, 9:07 pm

zaq wrote:

The red stone is sourced in rashi and Rambam and gemara among other sources.

The mezuzah is a mitzvah as are tefillin, both were always advised by Lubavitcher rebbe to check if there were any problems, bc the mitzvah wouldn't be done properly with a posul scroll.

Can't answer the red string bc I never bought into it.

But we do have sources for things.

rainbow dash

Sat, Jan 11 2020, 9:08 pm

Interesting. I just brought my kid one cause it looks nice in her bedroom had no idea what they were used for.

sim

Sun, Jan 12 2020, 3:10 am

My former neighbor was a haudenoshaunee Indian and she had them all over the house. According to her, dream catchers have great religious and spiritual significance; she said it's the equivalent of hanging a cross in your home.

mp5

Sun, Jan 12 2020, 7:44 am

Not saying that anything is or isn't wrong with them but...
A while back my MIL brought me a beautiful dream-catcher that she'd bought from a reservation. I really liked it, and I appreciate the cultural significance that I found interesting, but I had the same question as you. So I googled it and found that "The dream catcher may also include sacred items such as certain feathers or beads" and that it is traditionally used by native Americans "for protection". That sounded too much like "avoda zara" to me, personally, so sadly I threw it away.

Again, not giving a psak here, I didn't ask a Rav, just my two cents.

mandksima

Sun, Jan 12 2020, 7:59 am

We actually asked our rav here about them after the local summer day camp made them one day as a project. I was upset because as stated above, I learned they were akin to religious objects of another culture and religion. Not for Jews at all. I learned it was tied to demons actually. The rav said better not to keep it near the kids so we didn't keep it. I asked him to speak to the camp so they would know about the issue with it, not sure if he did. Most people think it is just a nice decoration but it is good to know more about it so you won't have one around.

amother

Sun, Jan 12 2020, 8:20 am

Thank you all for taking the time to explain!
So the funny thing is my son started talking about it this morning and told me he made one in school- I said oh what’s it for? He said to catch the good dreams! So they turned it round to something fun I seems!

Simple1

Sun, Jan 12 2020, 8:28 am

Zaq, I never thought of Mezuza as being in that category. Always though it was strong mesorah to make sure Mezuzos are checked. More so if there are problems in the home. I'm not at all Lubavitch.

Last edited by Simple1 on Sun, Jan 12 2020, 10:05 am; edited 1 time in total

FranticFrummie

Sun, Jan 12 2020, 9:00 am

DD had a dream catcher in her bedroom when she was younger.

She was very clear that it was made in China, had sparkly yarn, and in no way was authentically related to any Native American peoples. She didn't think it had any power whatsoever, she just thought it looked cool. Eventually she got bored with it, and let the cat play with it until it was shredded.

I can definitely see how a dream catcher could be problematic for some homes, especially depending on if it was authentic, or if your kids see things very black and white and might get confused about why it is there. You have to use your seichel. Just because something "might be permitted" doesn't mean it's always the right thing for your home.

zaq

Sun, Jan 12 2020, 6:49 pm

Well, I would love to make wreaths to hang on the door because you can use just about any material from old pantyhose to plastic bags to dead tomato vines and you don’t need much in the way of artistic skill. BUT they are a Xian symbol and before that they were a pagan one, so they’re tref. Even in July. Oh, well.

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