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Down Syndrome in certain Chasidish Groups
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amother
Lime


 

Post Sat, Jan 11 2020, 10:39 pm
SuperWify wrote:
Yes but in my world it’s not even an option. Unless a child needs 24/7 care Like a vegetable cvs- no one is looking or thinking of giving away their children. It’s not an option. You have the child- it’s your responsibility to give the child what they need no matter how needy they are.

In Chasidish world it seems like it has become a norm almost.

I know a normal kid given up for adoption age 9 from an MO family. People do different things. Don't use this to chassidish bash.
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ectomorph




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Jan 11 2020, 10:44 pm
amother [ Pink ] wrote:
What is a good balance?

In case you missed it, this thread is NOT about parents deciding that they don't have the resources to raise a child. It's about someone else making the decision for them.

Again, everyone claiming that has been anonymous. I have several ins in the chassidish special needs world. I am not aware of anyone being forced to. I am aware of people saying that they were forced to avoid judgment. I suspect the latter is more common than the former.

I'm sure there are some cases people are forced just like people are sometimes given bad advice to divorce. Doesn't mean its systemic.

The fact is, not everyone can handle special needs plus large family, and this type of open adoption - not entirely limited to DS btw, also other rare syndromes associated with medical issues - can be a boon if handled sensitively. We value all life, including special needs, and this type of community network is a win win.
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SuperWify




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Jan 11 2020, 10:44 pm
amother [ Lime ] wrote:
I know a normal kid given up for adoption age 9 from an MO family. People do different things. Don't use this to chassidish bash.


I specifically wrote in my op that I’m not looking to Chasidish bash, I was hoping to find out that this is a myth. It sadly seems like it is not.

I’m sure plenty of non Chasidish people gave yo their kids but we are talking about Rebbes that advise and push this and therefore it has become almost a norm unfortunately.
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amother
Pink


 

Post Sat, Jan 11 2020, 10:53 pm
ectomorph wrote:
Again, everyone claiming that has been anonymous. I have several ins in the chassidish special needs world. I am not aware of anyone being forced to. I am aware of people saying that they were forced to avoid judgment. I suspect the latter is more common than the former.

I'm sure there are some cases people are forced just like people are sometimes given bad advice to divorce. Doesn't mean its systemic.

The fact is, not everyone can handle special needs plus large family, and this type of open adoption - not entirely limited to DS btw, also other rare syndromes associated with medical issues - can be a boon if handled sensitively. We value all life, including special needs, and this type of community network is a win win.


The poster with the screen name "downsyndrome" is extremely active in the community of families with down syndrome. She posted under her screen name. And I guarantee you that she knows many, many, many more families with a child who has down syndrome than you do, and she has spoken with them directly.

Most of the people posting anon are not interested in people linking their sn to a specific chassidus.
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amother
Smokey


 

Post Sun, Jan 12 2020, 3:52 am
amother [ Seashell ] wrote:
Involved in the special needs community, I see that many of the mothers of child with down syndrome are young, quite a few even their first or second child born when in their low 20s. Although the risk of down syndrome increases with age it is more common in younger mothers as they more children than older mothers.
God knows what he is doing and gives each child to it's parents and family at the age and stage that is right for them!!


It's because that age group tests for Down Syndrome and aborts if positive.

"Al tadin es chavercha ad shetagia limkomo".
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southernbubby




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jan 12 2020, 4:15 am
amother [ Smokey ] wrote:
It's because that age group tests for Down Syndrome and aborts if positive.

"Al tadin es chavercha ad shetagia limkomo".


I don't see as much judgement as I see an earnest attempt to understand what is going on. I have a friend, Rabbi Eliezer Goldstock, who made an organization called Heart to Heart, after a Rebbe told him not to make his wife take their DS newborn home. The couple was furious and, until they made Aliyah, made it their mission to educate the public about DS and special needs in general, so that these children could be raised and educated in their own communities.
He did get lots of flack because sometimes the mothers were very young, sheltered, and ill equipped, coupled with the lack of family and community support and anyone who tried to keep the baby swam against the tide. There was a huge concern about shidduchim for the other kids because of a misconception about DS running in families. Those who gave the babies up told the neighbors that the babies were stillborn but nobody could know that the baby had DS.
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amother
Seashell


 

Post Sun, Jan 12 2020, 5:20 am
amother [ Smokey ] wrote:
It's because that age group tests for Down Syndrome and aborts if positive.

"Al tadin es chavercha ad shetagia limkomo".


Actually, prenatal screening for downs syndrome as well as other diagnoses is offered to all ages of parents. It's an individual choice whether or not to do it. As well as an individual choice about what to do with the results
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amother
Firebrick


 

Post Sun, Jan 12 2020, 5:26 am
ectomorph wrote:
Most children born at age 46 are healthy and normal. We shouldn't kill all those babies because some might be special - that's what Amram suggested in response to Paroh saying to throw all the babies in the river. However, there needs to be an escape hatch - at all ages - because the fact is that not everyone can handle a severe special needs kids, which most DS are. (not all. But there is definitely a very high chance).

I actually think it's a good balance. It values everyone's life. Everyone saying people are forced are anonymous, and frankly I don't know any cases like that in real life. I do know people who say they were forced to avoid judgment.

The family doesn't lose touch and usually checks on the kid and has a relationship, and the adoptive family has more resources.


Ok so I used the wrong word. They're not 'forced'. They are told explicitly by their Rebbe to give the child away. And they listen, no questions asked. Because that is how they are raised from very young. What the Rebbe says, they do.

People keep mentioning mothers in their 40s with large families. I'm saying I know first time and second time mothers who gave away the child because they were told to. Not because they didn't have the time or resources for the child.

I know (because I deal in the medical community), that often the babies are left in the hospital after birth, and Hamaspik or some other org scrambles to find a temporary family to place the child, until they are able to find a permanent placement.
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FranticFrummie




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jan 12 2020, 5:30 am
amother [ Seashell ] wrote:
Actually, prenatal screening for downs syndrome as well as other diagnoses is offered to all ages of parents. It's an individual choice whether or not to do it. As well as an individual choice about what to do with the results


There are also a lot of false positives. I personally know several women who were advised to abort a DS child, just to find out at delivery that the baby was B'H completely normal.

It makes me so happy every time I see a child or adult with DS being included in the frum community. It gives me hope for the future of Yiddishkeit.

I will never, ever judge parents who chose to surrender their child, though. People's lives are so complex, you can never look from the outside and think you know better. Even if you are very close to the family, or related to the family, you don't know people's hearts and mental states.

As far as rebbes "forcing" a couple with a DS child, there is a kind of "invisible forcing" that can be stronger than chains. Just imagine your DH wanting to wear a pink or light blue shirt. It just isn't done! If the idea makes you nervous, just imagine how terrifying it would be to go against your rebbe on such a huge decision. The community price can be devastating.

It's the rebbes and the communities that need to be educated, and there needs to be more services and support for sn kids. The more support, the weaker the argument to get rid of the baby.
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Mama Bear




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jan 12 2020, 1:20 pm
Well, I disagree with any blanket 'shittah' to not to take home DS babies. I think that's mostly prevalent in Skver (and ironically in Skver it's common to take in other ppls' DS babies, bc the Rebbe explained that when it's not your own child you dont have the emotional upheavel attached to it, whatevs.....). Those few ppl I am acquainted with, are not Skver, and they made the decision after a lot of careful discussion.
However the OP of this post is the go-to person for a lot of DS parents, so she has probably spoken to many many more parents than I did, who were basically coerced by well meaning family members that they won't be able to handle it and they should not take the baby home and they regretted that decision.
I have a cousin in Monsey who did that... she took her baby back home after a few months, she couldnt bear the separation, and he's doing quite well.
Kudos and admiration to the families who don't try to place their babies. I just don't think we should judge or look down those who did. They are suffering enough.
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Ruchel




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jan 13 2020, 4:19 am
Chassidim are more likely to adopt these children that to do that. And to keep them if you know what I say... so no, let's not again.
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southernbubby




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jan 13 2020, 4:42 am
I think that part of the issue is saying that what seemed to be a good solution 100 years ago, no longer works today. Rebbeim seem to want to keep things the same because saying that changing times means changing approaches could be applied to so many things that someone could argue that Chassidishe people should modernize in other ways.
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