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Title edit: frum people fostering non Jewish children
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ectomorph




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jan 16 2020, 9:14 am
We don't seek to convert others to our religion. There is a woman on this site whose adopted at birth child chose not to be Jewish at 12. And this child has every right to do that.

There is a concept of zera yosrael. A child whose father is jewish is given an easy time at conversion.

Especially if you're orthodox which is 99% white I don't think its fair to take a kid away from their people and community. A black kid will feel different. Which can be hard for some kids. You don't deliberately put a kid in a hard situation.

I am friends with a convert to Islam who was raised by Jewish parents from birth. She had tremendous struggles trying to decide where she belonged (& had never been converted to Judaism).

That said, if I had a relative with a mixed race baby I would probably offer to adopt because kids belong in their own family. I just wouldn't take an unrelated baby. There are loving Black / Asian families that would be a much better fit.


Last edited by ectomorph on Tue, Feb 25 2020, 2:45 pm; edited 1 time in total
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ectomorph




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jan 16 2020, 9:16 am
And fostering has huge issues. Faith based historically has done the best job but that's fallen out of favor and lesbian women kill their foster kids all the time. Just google news stories.
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southernbubby




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jan 16 2020, 9:23 am
ectomorph wrote:

We don't seek to convert others to our religion. There is a woman on this site whose adopted at birth child chose not to be Jewish at 12. And this child has every right to do that.

There is a concept of zera yosrael. A child whose father is jewish is given an easy time at conversion.

Especially if you're orthodox which is 99% white I don't think its fair to take a kid away from their people and community. A black kid will feel different. Which can be hard for some kids. You don't deliberately put a kid in a hard situation.

I am friends with a convert to Islam who was raised by Jewish parents from birth. She had tremendous struggles trying to decide where she belonged (& had never been converted to Judaism).

That said, if I had a relative with a mixed race baby I would probably offer to adopt because kids belong in their own family. I just wouldn't take an unrelated baby. There are loving Black / Asian families that would be a much better fit.


She holds by Chabad and I think Mosaic is a Jewish but not frum publication.
I think that there would be significant halachic issues and of course a Rav should be consulted prior to adoption of any child but particularly one that isn't Jewish.
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amother
Pewter


 

Post Thu, Jan 16 2020, 9:26 am
You can theoretically raise a child as a Noahide.
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Rappel




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jan 16 2020, 9:40 am
I'm very interested in foster care (though we do not yet, since we have several conditions we still want to meet before we ever apply), and I used to be involved in a lot of foster communities and resources before I made Aliyah.

My personal observations: the vast majority of US foster parents do so as a result of Christian values, and many intend to save the souls of the children they take on. It's a big debate in the community, since many feel there is a basic tenet of respecting the childrens' original family values, but those who do actively missionise are adamant that they are doing best for the children, and that motivates them.

Jews, on the other hand, are anti-missionising. Major structures of our religion are built around the idea of keeping a respectful distance from non-Jews. Non-Jews are not even allowed to keep Shabbat. It just wouldn't occur to most people to mix cultures.

Another factor: finances. Again, there are exceptions, but many foster homes do not have many biological children. Many live in nice, American homes or ranches, and send their kids to public school. Food is standard American. Clothes come at a few dollars an item. And yes -- most foster parents pay for things for the kids they foster. Almost no state provides a decent stipend for the kids.

Orthodox Jews often have many kids, high tuition, filled houses, and need to buy specialty clothes and food. There just isn't the same kind of excess capital.


Should everyone foster? No. It's very challenging, and sometimes even dangerous, to work with these damaged children. It's very challenging to give them back to their parents too. But anyone who does foster is bringing light into darkness, and they're doing G-d's work, in every sense.
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Rubber Ducky




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jan 16 2020, 9:56 am
DH and I have fostered a few Jewish children. Both were "informal" placements — meaning not removed from their homes by CPS (although one should have been) and not in the official system.

Although we never completed the paperwork or had the in-home review, we went through foster parent training with about 10 other people, and all of them were religious Christians. Nearly half were pastors.

The local Federation closed their foster care section because there weren't enough Jewish kids to justify it. Most placements here are voluntary.
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meyerlemon44




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jan 16 2020, 10:04 am
amother [ Natural ] wrote:
It is very difficult or impossible for frum Jews to be foster parents for the foster care system in the USA.

The application scares people off. And if someone does fill it out, the foster care system will REJECT them.

Example of question on application? Any mental illness in the family?
Now which holocaust survivor, siberia survivor descendant can answer without fear of scrutiny ( or magnifying glass CPS or ACS children services wonderful "know it all" arrogant people.)

Another question: were you or husband ever on meds??
Now who in their right mind will answer that one. You will have the CPS decide that the pizza and french fries thursday nite supper is the parenting crime of the century. (the veggies are missing!!! oh what a felony!"
Ironically, many of these people on meds are best equipped to understand motherless/traumatized/troubled adolescents...

Christians on the other hand usually have a non jewish ruigkeit (peacefulness),living in stable conditions for the past few generations...

Their application is "clean" and they look good on paper.

So, PLEASE DO NOT COMPARE APPLES TO WHEAT.

Many of us gladly took into our homes children/ teenagers with major issues as long as we dont have the KGB of children services eying us with prejudiced eyes.....


CPS is desperate to place children in healthy families. They do not reject emotionally healthy families because they serve pizza once a week. Please do not spread misinformation.
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amother
Pewter


 

Post Thu, Jan 16 2020, 10:10 am
meyerlemon44 wrote:
CPS is desperate to place children in healthy families. They do not reject emotionally healthy families because they serve pizza once a week. Please do not spread misinformation.

Sadly, sometimes they have been known to settle for families that are far from ideal.
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ora_43




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jan 16 2020, 10:48 am
It's always a strange feeling when you agree with someone's basic thinking, and yet vehemently disagree with basically every argument they make in support of their thinking.

My main issues with this:

- why on earth would the fact that non-frum Jews marry later mean they're off the table as potential foster parents? Let alone off the table as potential donors of resources for foster families?

- the comparisons to Christians seem unfair, given the sheer scale of the Christian community compared to the Jewish community, particularly in... basically everywhere outside the tri-state area. It would be extremely surprising if Christians weren't the primary faith-based community involved in this cause.

And last but DEFINITELY not least:

- why the assumption that if most hareidi parents don't love the idea of fostering a non-Jewish kid, it must be because they need it explained to them that non-Jews are valuable, too, and that chessed for non-Jews is important? I mean, I'm not denying that some people might need to hear that, but there are also MAJOR cultural and religious differences. There are huge practical issues involved in adopting a Christian kid into a yiddish-speaking shomer Shabbat Jewish household in a 90% ethnically Jewish neighborhood. The fact that she ignores those issues completely in favor of talking about divine sparks is bizarre.

ALL THAT SAID

The basic idea of this being a valuable cause is something I definitely support.

And it would be interesting to hear a more practical take, eg stories of Jewish families who've fostered or adopted non-Jewish kids and how they made it work. (I think I did see a story like that a while back in an Israeli paper.)

I think that people in general are more likely to be interested if they hear how, practically speaking, they can help, rather than just being told that Jews aren't doing enough.
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southernbubby




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jan 16 2020, 11:10 am
There are shluchim in Nepal who took in an abandoned, naked, dirty, injured, sick, and hungry 9 year old Nepalese boy when he knocked on their door in desperation. They nursed him back to health but then he wanted to stay and be Jewish. They adopted him but told him that conversion would have to wait until he was an adult and could really decide. They send him to a Nepalese school.

Another frum Jew, Dr Rick Hodes runs a medical clinic in Ethiopia and adopted 5 Ethiopian boys who celebrate Shabbos and Yom tov with him.

Author Mitch Albom, a non frum Jew and his wife, adopted a terminally ill Haitian girl from an orphanage in Haiti. They raised her for 2 years before she passed away.
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thriver




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jan 16 2020, 11:35 am
I know Malka Groden’s sister and have met and seen Malka in person with her two lovely children.

I just want to vouch for her as a parent. I did not actually read through the article; just wanted to put that out there.
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southernbubby




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jan 16 2020, 12:05 pm
thriver wrote:
I know Malka Groden’s sister and have met and seen Malka in person with her two lovely children.

I just want to vouch for her as a parent. I did not actually read through the article; just wanted to put that out there.


I'm sure that her solution will work for some families but doubt that it's ever going to be widely accepted. I did pass her on the street once and the kids are really cute.
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amother
Rose


 

Post Thu, Jan 16 2020, 12:16 pm
I personally made a few phone calls to foster care agencies in response to teenage non-Jewish children seeking homes. I said I would adopt one if they would be willing to convert to Judaism. I was told by the agencies that the kids aren't interested in being Jewish. The author is unrealistic.

If someone can direct me to actual children who want to be adopted AND and willing to convert, please let me know. I was informed that they don't want to keep kosher and dress modestly.

Quote:
It is the mission of Jews to advance that project through whatever means they can: teaching Torah, helping to build a soup kitchen, giving charity, or adopting and parenting a non-Jewish child in desperate need of a stable, loving home.


I agree, with one caveat. According to Halacha, your kitchen is not kosher if you leave it alone with a gentile. You need to either have cameras in the kitchen or have a neighbor who comes and goes on a regular basis to check up on things. A non-Jewish child can not be trusted to keep your kitchen Kosher. I was honestly willing to take in non-Jewish children, but only on condition that they be interested in converting to Judaism, so they would care more about things like Kosher.
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Rappel




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jan 16 2020, 12:26 pm
southernbubby wrote:
There are shluchim in Nepal who took in an abandoned, naked, dirty, injured, sick, and hungry 9 year old Nepalese boy when he knocked on their door in desperation. They nursed him back to health but then he wanted to stay and be Jewish. They adopted him but told him that conversion would have to wait until he was an adult and could really decide. They send him to a Nepalese school.

Another frum Jew, Dr Rick Hodes runs a medical clinic in Ethiopia and adopted 5 Ethiopian boys who celebrate Shabbos and Yom tov with him.

Author Mitch Albom, a non frum Jew and his wife, adopted a terminally ill Haitian girl from an orphanage in Haiti. They raised her for 2 years before she passed away.


These are beautiful stories, but they don't reflect *at all* what it's like to foster in the US.

When you foster:

*Babies are likely to be drug babies, and weaning a newborn off of drugs is horrifying and exhausting.

*Children usually need special services due to cognitive lags. In addition, emotional regulation issues can range from disruptive to downright dangerous, and the foster family needs to take all of it in stride.

*Even a "normal" kid would have a huge difficulty integrating in a religious Jewish home. Assuming that you're not on the way to adoption (which is only even on the table if the biological parents' rights have been terminated), then this kid has come from normal secular culture, and will be returning to it. So how does that work? Do you enroll the kid in Jewish school or public school? Do you enforce modesty rules? If you don't, then how do you promote the kid's social life/peers among all of your local kids and friends? Phones/devices/video games/music? If you put the kid in public school, then where do you draw the line when it comes to social life/what they can bring in to the home? "And by the way, Sonny, we love you like our own child, but Jewish law means we need to keep you separate in these many areas." (kashrut, bishul Akum, Shabbat, Seder etc. ). The culture clash is huge, and can be very unfriendly.

* For most foster kids, the end goal is reunification. A foster parent must have some contact with the birth family while they try to work their reunification plan. A good foster parent helps the family work their plan, and teaches them skills they need to cope with life and parenting. You're often dealing with extreme dysfunction, across multiple generations, and it's a lot to take in, and a lot to take on. That relationship doesn't end when the kids go back to their birth parents, either.

Fostering in the United States is a huge undertaking. It's not a "long ago and far away" fairytale. It's literally saving a life, but it can cost you the stability of your familybalong the way, and at the very least many sleepless nights. You can't quote adoptions in Ethiopia, Haiti, or Nepal, and say that's the same as a temporary foster in America.
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southernbubby




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jan 16 2020, 1:10 pm
Rappel wrote:
These are beautiful stories, but they don't reflect *at all* what it's like to foster in the US.

When you foster:

*Babies are likely to be drug babies, and weaning a newborn off of drugs is horrifying and exhausting.

*Children usually need special services due to cognitive lags. In addition, emotional regulation issues can range from disruptive to downright dangerous, and the foster family needs to take all of it in stride.

*Even a "normal" kid would have a huge difficulty integrating in a religious Jewish home. Assuming that you're not on the way to adoption (which is only even on the table if the biological parents' rights have been terminated), then this kid has come from normal secular culture, and will be returning to it. So how does that work? Do you enroll the kid in Jewish school or public school? Do you enforce modesty rules? If you don't, then how do you promote the kid's social life/peers among all of your local kids and friends? Phones/devices/video games/music? If you put the kid in public school, then where do you draw the line when it comes to social life/what they can bring in to the home? "And by the way, Sonny, we love you like our own child, but Jewish law means we need to keep you separate in these many areas." (kashrut, bishul Akum, Shabbat, Seder etc. ). The culture clash is huge, and can be very unfriendly.

* For most foster kids, the end goal is reunification. A foster parent must have some contact with the birth family while they try to work their reunification plan. A good foster parent helps the family work their plan, and teaches them skills they need to cope with life and parenting. You're often dealing with extreme dysfunction, across multiple generations, and it's a lot to take in, and a lot to take on. That relationship doesn't end when the kids go back to their birth parents, either.

Fostering in the United States is a huge undertaking. It's not a "long ago and far away" fairytale. It's literally saving a life, but it can cost you the stability of your familybalong the way, and at the very least many sleepless nights. You can't quote adoptions in Ethiopia, Haiti, or Nepal, and say that's the same as a temporary foster in America.


This is all very true and my brother has seen that there is no way to totally overcome the damages that occurred before the children were taken away from the parents as well as the damages that occurred during the child's journey through the foster care system.
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amother
Blue


 

Post Thu, Jan 16 2020, 2:55 pm
I'm desperate to adopt and/or foster. I wish it were that simple, and I daven that Hashem sends us the right one.
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amother
Floralwhite


 

Post Thu, Jan 16 2020, 4:10 pm
I have heard that even with adoption there is a question of yichud and the like with the parents ...?
how would this work with fostering non jewish kids? or adopting them?
I have heard of adopting babies and they have to choose whether to convert at age 12.
I don't know but it does seem like a frum Jewish family fostering and such adds a lot of complications adding to an already complex situation -- not saying its impossible or not sometimes advised.
I would not feel this is something which is an "obligation" for everyone or every frum Jewish family. Or something all of us could take on.
AYLOR
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amother
Seashell


 

Post Thu, Jan 16 2020, 4:34 pm
If it falls into your lap, like if your non-Jewish next door neighbor begs you to adopt their kids, you may have a moral obligation or at the very least it would be praiseworthy to take them.

But to deliberately seek out a non-Jewish child to adopt? I'm not sure.

In general taking care of fellow Jews (who unfortunately are also in need of foster homes) takes priority over taking care of gentiles, who have many who can help them.
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ectomorph




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jan 16 2020, 4:40 pm
Rappel wrote:
These are beautiful stories, but they don't reflect *at all* what it's like to foster in the US.

When you foster:

*Babies are likely to be drug babies, and weaning a newborn off of drugs is horrifying and exhausting.

*Children usually need special services due to cognitive lags. In addition, emotional regulation issues can range from disruptive to downright dangerous, and the foster family needs to take all of it in stride.

*Even a "normal" kid would have a huge difficulty integrating in a religious Jewish home. Assuming that you're not on the way to adoption (which is only even on the table if the biological parents' rights have been terminated), then this kid has come from normal secular culture, and will be returning to it. So how does that work? Do you enroll the kid in Jewish school or public school? Do you enforce modesty rules? If you don't, then how do you promote the kid's social life/peers among all of your local kids and friends? Phones/devices/video games/music? If you put the kid in public school, then where do you draw the line when it comes to social life/what they can bring in to the home? "And by the way, Sonny, we love you like our own child, but Jewish law means we need to keep you separate in these many areas." (kashrut, bishul Akum, Shabbat, Seder etc. ). The culture clash is huge, and can be very unfriendly.

* For most foster kids, the end goal is reunification. A foster parent must have some contact with the birth family while they try to work their reunification plan. A good foster parent helps the family work their plan, and teaches them skills they need to cope with life and parenting. You're often dealing with extreme dysfunction, across multiple generations, and it's a lot to take in, and a lot to take on. That relationship doesn't end when the kids go back to their birth parents, either.

Fostering in the United States is a huge undertaking. It's not a "long ago and far away" fairytale. It's literally saving a life, but it can cost you the stability of your familybalong the way, and at the very least many sleepless nights. You can't quote adoptions in Ethiopia, Haiti, or Nepal, and say that's the same as a temporary foster in America.

This.
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FranticFrummie




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jan 16 2020, 5:19 pm
ectomorph wrote:
And fostering has huge issues. Faith based historically has done the best job but that's fallen out of favor and lesbian women kill their foster kids all the time. Just google news stories.


All the time? Really? All lesbians? Which ones?

The truth is that children are far more likely to be killed by heterozexual males, especially if they are the "latest boyfriend", and not the biological father. In the wild, a dominant chimpanzee will kill of his new mate's children from a previous father. The new chimp in town wants only his genetic material to go forward. Another scenario, is when a man loses his job, or his wife files for divorce, he will kill the whole family, and then himself.

As for halacha, it gets extremely tricky. You'll need rabbinical guidance all the way, regarding conversion, yichud, etc. I know a woman who converted when her son was 16. He was not allowed to live with her anymore because they were "no longer related". Another family from the community took him in and cared for him until he turned 18 and could convert on his own. Now imagine this situation with adopted or foster kids. I'd have my rabbi on speed dial.
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