A get | Imamother

amother

Puce

Fri, Jan 17 2020, 3:35 pm

I am being half sarcastic here but...

With polygamy there would be no shidduch problem. No leftover divorced or widowed women. Maybe half a husband is better than none.

:Exit stage right:

imorethanamother

Fri, Jan 17 2020, 3:57 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Sadly not every rabbi agrees with it. Altho yes bh it's a step for so many!!!! And also it isnt fool-proof. It's a deterrent, but doesnt prevent men from abusing.

Abusing their wives? Right. Abusing the system? With the halachic prenup, you can't chain a woman to your side for years for the thrill of it anymore.

And if the Agudah is on board, more will follow. Agudah is as right wing as it gets.

lucymaud

Sat, Jan 18 2020, 7:09 am

The fact is that if men had to endure what women do with regards to a get, the law would have been changed centuries ago. There are various ways around this, but mainstream rabbis refuse to implement them. This is all about power.

amother

Slategray

Sat, Jan 18 2020, 11:14 am

gamanit wrote:

Why does that bother you? If there's no way to determine which one is infertile shouldn't the husband have a 50% chance of having a child?

You mean, why should it bother us that a man with no children is encouraged/forced to divorce?

Why doesn't it bother you, should be the question. A woman is left high and dry, abandoned, with no status, no family, no partner. In the old days, it meant she would be thrown back to her father's tent or hovel. No future. Who would marry her after that?

And all this so the man can have children, although there might be a 50% he is infertile anyway??

amother

Slategray

Sat, Jan 18 2020, 11:17 am

amother [ Puce ] wrote:

I am being half sarcastic here but...

With polygamy there would be no shidduch problem. No leftover divorced or widowed women. Maybe half a husband is better than none.

:Exit stage right:

That means that 100% of women would suffer, rather than 10 or 20% that 'suffer' now.

Honestly, I'd MUCH rather be an independent single/divorced woman than a second wife.

grace413

Sat, Jan 18 2020, 3:31 pm

amother [ Blue ] wrote:

I'm surprised nobody mentioned this yet- you do know that women can (and it happens) refuse the get, and because of rabeinu gershom are now 'bound' to their wife who they would like to divorce...

No. They can obtain heter meah rabbanim.

amother

Natural

Sat, Jan 18 2020, 4:10 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

We're always so proud to boast, "look at the torah! Even 3k years ago, it wrote this and that and look! Still true today!" (4 animals with 1 kosher sign, etc)

How can the torah possibly put woman into a situation where they cant get a get without the husbands approval?

Because they used to beat the man? Oh. But the same Hasuem that wrote the torah knew that. Because for those days torah was advanced in feminine rights? Okay soit was progressive then but is behind the times now?

And no. I'm not arguing role of woman or who can be rabbi or gemara or any of that....

Why is a WOMAN unable to divorce without the man, and she can be chained for life while a man can get heter meah rabbonim? Is this a "chok?"

The get, like the ketubah, requires the approval of both marriage partners.
You cannot marry without both parties' consent.
You cannot divorce without both parties' consent.

Today there are men who are tied to women who refuse to accept a get, heter meah rabbanim is almost never given in such cases, but we don't care about those men, we only care about the women.

amother

Natural

Sat, Jan 18 2020, 4:14 pm

grace413 wrote:

No. They can obtain heter meah rabbanim.

Heter meah rabbanim is almost never given, it's usually reserved for very rare cases of a wife who is in a coma or should be/ is in a mental asylum. A man whose wife is "just" abusive and refuses to accept a get has zero options for remarrying and starting a new life, no rabbi who knows his past will agree to perform the marriage and he cannot divorce. He could always skive off and pretend to never have been married in the first place, but if it comes to that, so can a woman.

amother

Slategray

Sat, Jan 18 2020, 5:07 pm

amother [ Natural ] wrote:

It's true that there are men tied to women who refuse to give a get, but there are MANY more women in that position. No comparison.

Have you ever heard of a woman refusing to give a get for ten or twenty years? Neither have I.

The batei din are also very aggressive in pressuring women to agree to anything, just to get a get. At least I know many such cases in Israel. As if the woman should be so grateful to be given a get, that they should agree to any demands.

Also, don't forget that men have biology on their side. Their biological clock isn't ticking, and they are not as desperate in terms of time.

If a man isn't frum, he isnt in any hurry to give a get.
A secular woman is. Beit din will treat her very badly if she moves in with a new man, and her kids will be declared mamzerim.

amother

Natural

Sat, Jan 18 2020, 5:11 pm

amother [ Slategray ] wrote:

It's true that there are men tied to women who refuse to give a get, but there are MANY more women in that position. No comparison.

Wrong. Israel's records show that the number of men is slightly more than the number of women.

Quote:

Have you ever heard of a woman refusing to give a get for ten or twenty years? Neither have I.

That's because no organizations care about them enough to make noise.

Quote:

Also, don't forget that men have biology on their side. Their biological clock isn't ticking, and they are not as desperate in terms of time.

That's not true at all. Men have a biological clock too and for some men it ticks faster than for others.

As an aside, you sound very angry and bitter. While I understand that this issue may be triggering for you, the bitterness does not help your credibility in the least.

amother

Chocolate

Sat, Jan 18 2020, 6:44 pm

amother [ Natural ] wrote:

Untrue. Men married to abusive women witholding a get in spite can get a heter meah rabbanim. It is NOT very rare. My own relative got one after his wife refused to accept a get. And I can name several more ppl in my community.

PinkFridge

Sat, Jan 18 2020, 9:37 pm

Studious wrote:

Polygamy was obviously not a good option for Leah. She was manifestly hated. You could just as well say slavery is a good option for a vulnerable woman. Solves some problems and creates many more. You should read Avraham Grossman’s book on medieval Jewish women. His reading of the historical evidence is that polygamy creates intense hatred and misery. The wives hated each other. The kids hated each other.

I guess you mean early medieval Jewish women because didn't the cherem come into effect about 1000 years ago?

PinkFridge

Sat, Jan 18 2020, 9:40 pm

amother [ Slategray ] wrote:

I know of many childless couples married for longer than 10 years.

amother

Brown

Sat, Jan 18 2020, 10:16 pm

amother [ Chocolate ] wrote:

Exactly. And because technically a man can get married to more than one woman, a man can find ways around a wife’s refusal far more easily. Also, because Beit Din is composed of - guess what? - men, they will use far more resources to compel a woman to accept a get than the other way around.

I also know men whose wives refused to accept the get and they got remarried despite that.

amother

Sat, Jan 18 2020, 10:18 pm

amother [ Chocolate ] wrote:

This.
And for men, there IS an option. (Even if you want to argue how often its used)
For woman -zero.

Mama Bear

Sat, Jan 18 2020, 10:46 pm

Im starting to wonder if some of the infertility in those early centuries were due to the ignorance of how the cycles worked, I.e. they didnt know to be together around day 14 - there was no TH yet then, so its possible they kept missing the right day....

amother

Forestgreen

Sat, Jan 18 2020, 10:49 pm

PinkFridge wrote:

I know of many childless couples married for longer than 10 years.

My DH told me that it's very possible that these couples confirmed that it's male factor infertility.

Or it could simply be that we don't hold by this nowadays.

However, the fact that it's even brought down in halacha is very troubling.

amother

Mistyrose

Sat, Jan 18 2020, 10:58 pm

PinkFridge wrote:

I know of many childless couples married for longer than 10 years.

I think that after 10 years, the halacha is that a divorce is acceptable and warranted. However, if they choose to stay together, they can.