A get | Imamother

amother

Indigo

Sun, Jan 19 2020, 10:58 am

amother [ Mauve ] wrote:

What obligation could the woman have? She owns nothing. Her husband owns the rights to all her possessions, and anything she earns, finds, acquires (in most other ways), etc. belongs to her husband. The husband is taking care of her in exchange for acquiring all she owns or earns. Sounds to me like a much better deal for the man.

It's not as simple as you make it out to be. women may (and do) have their own possessions, etc.
IN any event, women aren't obligated to keep this arrangement. They may keep all of their earnings, possessions, etc. if they don't obligate their husband to support them.

amother

Mauve

Sun, Jan 19 2020, 11:00 am

amother [ Indigo ] wrote:

That’s true - but that lets the husband off his obligation under the kesuvah - to support her.

amother

Plum

Sun, Jan 19 2020, 11:13 am

amother [ Natural ] wrote:

Wow, it's amazing that all those men chained to recalcitrant and abusive wives (and the batei din they divorce in) didn't know what you know. Why not start offering courses for men on how to unchain themselves from these horrible women? I'm sure you could make a fortune off it, even if you charge just $300 a course.
I guess these chained men don't really exist, and certainly if they do it must be their own fault, that they didn't do any of the things you've suggested.

Oh please, stop with "all these chained men". I'm not calling you a liar if you claim to know a chained man, but let's not equate the very real agunah problem by equalizing it with chained men. I have never heard of a chained man in my life. I don't recall ever reading or hearing about a rally in support of a chained man. I don't ever recall reading in a frum newspaper a list of chained men.
I'm wondering if you are accidentally imagining this problem of chained men.

amother

Chocolate

Sun, Jan 19 2020, 11:26 am

My relative's wife has refused to accept a get for over ten years. Despite having a heter meah rabbanim he is still trying to get a get and has offered her everything and anything. She prefers to torture him. (She was diagnosed with a severe personality disorder.)

amother

Natural

Sun, Jan 19 2020, 11:52 am

amother [ Plum ] wrote:

Just because you've never heard of something doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
In fact it is more common for a man to be chained than for a woman, like I said earlier. Of course there is no rally in support of them, there are no organizations with big bucks backing them and it's not a popular cause to support men being abused by women. If anything people like to pretend such situations don't exist - like you're doing right now.
When you say "let's not equate the very real agunah problem by equalizing it with chained men" you are basically saying "let's not equate abused men with abused women, or chained men with chained women." You are basically saying that abused men have less rights than abused women, and only women who are abused deserve help and sympathy.

Ema of 5

Sun, Jan 19 2020, 11:57 am

amother [ Indigo ] wrote:

Interesting. Why is this so? Even before paternity tests, weren't women who had an affair suspect?
I have no background in this area of learning. Would love to hear more, if you know more.

As for polygamy in general, we do have to understand that the union of a couple was very different than it is today. I wish I could remember where I read up on this, because it was quite fascinating. I can't remember if this was in one particular culture, or the general culture, but things were very different. The general feel was that women's families were closer to them than their husbands. I know there's rayim, ahuvim, etc. from way back when, but practically speaking, the deep closeness and friendship we expect in a relationship wasn't necessarily there. Women's first loyalty often was to their families.
Many examples of this were given, but I can't remember. wish someone could help me out.

Sorry for not responding earlier. In the case of a woman who is accused of cheating, the only way a woman could be found guilty is if there are witnesses and warnings. Since a paternity test is neither of those, it is not valid within halacha.
I’m not sure how it would ACTUALLY play out, but this is my understanding.

Ema of 5

Sun, Jan 19 2020, 11:58 am

amother [ Chocolate ] wrote:

He is not chained if he has the heter meah rabbanim....

amother

Natural

Sun, Jan 19 2020, 12:01 pm

Ema of 4 wrote:

He is not chained if he has the heter meah rabbanim....

Could be that even with it no one will agree to do shidduchim, date him, or officiate at his wedding, that's a). B) I think the point was to show that these cases do exist, where the woman refuses to accept a get despite the man being very nice and doing his best. C) The case underlines the fact that in cases where the wife suffers a psychiatric/mental illness the husband is more likely to get heter 100 than in other cases.

Ema of 5

Sun, Jan 19 2020, 12:05 pm

amother [ Natural ] wrote:

But he is not chained. He has limited options, but he still has options. A woman who does not have a get HAS NO OTHER OPTIONS. Being hard is not the same thing.

amother

Plum

Sun, Jan 19 2020, 12:14 pm

amother [ Natural ] wrote:

I don't equate abused men to abused women not because there are no abused men, but because there are far more abused woman than men. Same with gett, although you're claiming it's actually "far more common for men to be chained than women". Seems like complete nonsense to me. I can look online or in frum papers and immediately get names of women that are currently chained. Can you name a single public source that names a single man who is chained right now? Literally just one. For example a quick look online gives me the names and stories of multiple agunos. I don't see any mention or names of any chained men. You say the number of chained men is higher than chained women. Where exactly are you getting this info from?

amother

Natural

Sun, Jan 19 2020, 12:20 pm

Ema of 4 wrote:

But he is not chained. He has limited options, but he still has options. A woman who does not have a get HAS NO OTHER OPTIONS. Being hard is not the same thing.

If no one agrees to accept the heter - no shadchan, no woman, no rav - and this is quite common, not to accept heter 100 rabbanim, even if a man has it - then he essentially has no options. An option that is on paper only is not an option. It's like telling someone who is terminally ill "but there is a drug that can cure you, you're much better off than the person who has no cure" if there is no money to pay for it and no one will donate or give a discount and there is no way of actually accessing that miracle drug in time to prevent death, then it doesn't matter if the miracle drug exists and maybe its existence makes things worse because things could be better, were it not for a lack of money (or in this case societal acceptance).

amother

Natural

Sun, Jan 19 2020, 12:30 pm

amother [ Plum ] wrote:

No there is a huge amount of underreporting when it comes to abused men, they are much more likely not to turn for help and when they do to lie about what happened because it is "unmanly" to be a victim and they have been taught since childhood that they can only abuse, not be abused.
You can look online but the numbers from Israel's rabbinate show that the number of chained men is slightly higher than that of chained women. Saying "well it only counts from 2 years" ignores the fact that counting from 2 years goes for both genders.

Ema of 5

Sun, Jan 19 2020, 12:56 pm

amother [ Natural ] wrote:

I’m sure it’s happened and I haven’t heard about it, but the only time I heard of the hater not being accepted was when it’s authenticity was suspect.

amother

Slategray

Sun, Jan 19 2020, 1:04 pm

amother [ Natural ] wrote:

I havent seen the numbers, but if I have time I will look them up later.
In any case, the Israeli rabbanut is notorious for siding with men, and it takes much much more for a woman to be declared an agunah than for a man to be declared 'chained' to a stubborn woman.

dancingqueen

Sun, Jan 19 2020, 1:29 pm

amother [ Natural ] wrote:

1- they are not chained, they have options
2- please name 1 such case
3- you are the one who comes across as bitter and misogynistic

amother

Natural

Sun, Jan 19 2020, 2:05 pm

dancingqueen wrote:

1- they are not chained, they have options
2- please name 1 such case
3- you are the one who comes across as bitter and misogynistic

1. Only if those options are not limited to paper only.
2. I cannot due to privacy concerns. But I know more than 1 case offhand.
3. Thanks for the compliment. I actually have zero stake in this, as it stands today.

My only concern is what happens to any of our sons, if they are unfortunate enough to marry horrible women. They have no legitimacy, no support, there is only victim-blaming for those men unfortunate enough to be victims of domestic abuse.

amother

Slategray

Sun, Jan 19 2020, 2:42 pm

amother [ Natural ] wrote:

1. Only if those options are not limited to paper only.

It's not just on 'paper'. Many, many men have managed to remarry with this heter.

And many women have been pressured to just give the get already, since the beit din announces they will give the husband a heter if she doesn't.

Studious

Sun, Jan 19 2020, 3:00 pm

[quote="PinkFridge"]I guess you mean early medieval Jewish women because didn't the cherem come into effect about 1000 years ago?[/quoty

Well, the cherem did not apply to the Sephardic communities. But Grossman also brings various examples from the early Middle Ages. There are many examples from the Cairo Geniza as well.