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amother
Burlywood


 

Post Sun, Dec 08 2019, 5:00 am
amother [ Puce ] wrote:
Love this. Yes I firmly believe in finding a healthy middle ground and I hate that people who "side" with me on this issue are so extreme and blind to any questions. Any questions that I have are automatically tossed out because if I ask questions I must be anti-vax. It drives me mad. (Same with a lot of religious questions btw. And I know it's the same for the crunchy extremists - if you ask questions about, say, attachment parenting, then you must not care about your kids/ you must be an idiot.)

Using sewer water in a developed country probably won't give you cholera or polio, but it will probably give you lots of other horrible stuff.

Smallpox vaccines, even not sterile, still only caused death in about 1 in 5000 cases. They were still a much better option than the disease itself.

Proper wound care doesn't prevent tetanus infections, if the wound is deep enough. Or rabies infections. Once the bacteria gets in, it's in.

Titers show a certain kind of immunity. But we believe that a person who doesn't show titers may still be immune on a cellular level. We don't have proof of that, though, and we don't usually like to play games with life-and-death stakes.

About the citrus fruits, bloodletting also used to be used to cure diseases. And in some places in Africa the cure for HIV is to have relations with as many virgins as possible. I would need to see proof for the citrus fruits being a proper cure. Also the limb exercises might help people who suffer paralysis post-polio, but they don't help people who can no longer breathe and need an iron lung.


Just for fun, Google how many years the live polio vaccine sheds. It's a little shocking that this is an unknown. I recall two instances in recent years where polio was found in the sewage in Israel and people ran to get revaccinated. I didnt hear that anyone actually caught polio from it though.

I don't know where the 1 in 5000 number is from- do you have a source for that? It doesnt take a genius to figure out what happens when you use the same needle on infected people and healthy people. Especially with a live vaccine of a very contagious virus.

About tetanus, I read that the bacteria sets in under certain conditions. A properly cleaned wound with a disinfectant that contains oxygen, such as hydrogen peroxide would prevent tetanus infection. It's been a while since I've read this so I'll have to review it again for more info.

It is sad to read how they treated diseases back then. Is it any wonder so many people died? Between the leeches and the mercury poisoning treatments.

You can read the story of Sister Kenny, I'm pretty sure theres also a documentary on her that you can watch. How she treated polio victims. Her success rate. How centers opened all over the US and if I remember right, other places too like Australia. How she was shut down eventually because drs said she had dangerous methods because she exercised the limbs of the I'll instead of strapping them down immobilizing them. Vitamin C from citrus fruits was part of her treatment.
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amother
Puce


 

Post Sun, Dec 08 2019, 5:05 am
amother [ Burlywood ] wrote:
I explained it several times even in the post you quoted from me.
Because the borders arent secure and we have no idea of the immunity status of tourists, visitors, and illegals.
Because vaccines fail for some people even if they're fully vaccinated.
And because lots of adult citizens dont know their immunity status either.
So herd immunity is not what they claim it is.
And once you realize that, many of the other provax arguments fall away.
Maybe I'm wrong. I'm willing to hear why and how. So far whenever I've asked this about herd immunity, I've been accused of "whataboutism" and endangering others.

As far as measles, first of all it was never eradicated completely from the US like smallpox and polio. I have heard from drs that measles, mumps, chickenpox, (maybe pertussis too, I don't remember offhand), are cyclical diseases- they flare up every few years regardless. I think we've seen that, if you check the CDCs list of outbreaks.

Borders aren't secure and we don't know the immunity status of tourists, visitors, and illegals - meaning people in the US are vaxxed than we think, so it's maybe closer to 82% than 97%. Which would mean it's under the threshold necessary for herd immunity, not that herd immunity doesn't work. Meaning if we tighten borders and vax illegals there should be less of a problem.

Vaccines fail some people - yes but if enough people are vaxxed that's not an issue, and never was with vaccines that are 85-97-99% effective.

Lots of adults don't know their immunity status - we need to raise awareness and encourage titers testing. Doesn't mean herd immunity doesn't work, though.

But what all of this does mean is that the illusion of herd immunity, which we all (including a nice chunk of anti-vaxxers) wanted to believe in, is not as high or infallible as we would like to think. It needs to be actively kept up, not taken for granted as a given, because when we take it for granted, it starts to disappear - whether because we let in too many unvaxxed individuals or because we chose not to vaccinate since it's not really necessary anymore. One of the main reasons I vaccinated my older children is because I saw through the quiet created by a years of herd immunity, to the increasing percentages of unvaccinated individuals, and knew outbreaks were on their way.

Herd immunity definitely works, but an illusion that it is strong when in fact it is being actively chipped away, is a dangerous illusion.
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amother
Burlywood


 

Post Sun, Dec 08 2019, 5:08 am
amother [ Puce ] wrote:
Regarding the parentheses. The MMR is given at an age where ear infections are rampant anyways. I don't think it's possible to isolate which ear infections are from bottle-feeding, which are from preschool, and which maybe are from the MMR.
Also side effects from the vaccine - other than fever and general not feeling well - are rare. I also wonder how the exact numbers work out, but you're talking about one in ten thousand for some side effects, one in three million for others, whereas with the disease itself numbers are X in 100, X in 1000, (X is a whole number, not a decimal) depending on the side effect/ complication.

So since we dont know numbers, or maybe they think we do but I dont see how they can possibly prove them, I mark this as an unknown.

After a while the questions with unknown answers start to pile up...
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amother
Puce


 

Post Sun, Dec 08 2019, 5:25 am
amother [ Burlywood ] wrote:
Just for fun, Google how many years the live polio vaccine sheds. It's a little shocking that this is an unknown. I recall two instances in recent years where polio was found in the sewage in Israel and people ran to get revaccinated. I didnt hear that anyone actually caught polio from it though.

I don't know where the 1 in 5000 number is from- do you have a source for that? It doesnt take a genius to figure out what happens when you use the same needle on infected people and healthy people. Especially with a live vaccine of a very contagious virus.

About tetanus, I read that the bacteria sets in under certain conditions. A properly cleaned wound with a disinfectant that contains oxygen, such as hydrogen peroxide would prevent tetanus infection. It's been a while since I've read this so I'll have to review it again for more info.

It is sad to read how they treated diseases back then. Is it any wonder so many people died? Between the leeches and the mercury poisoning treatments.

You can read the story of Sister Kenny, I'm pretty sure theres also a documentary on her that you can watch. How she treated polio victims. Her success rate. How centers opened all over the US and if I remember right, other places too like Australia. How she was shut down eventually because drs said she had dangerous methods because she exercised the limbs of the I'll instead of strapping them down immobilizing them. Vitamin C from citrus fruits was part of her treatment.

Polio was in the sewage but due to high vaccination rates no one got sick. They weren't even really concerned about it, just used it as publicity to raise awareness and took precautions for immunocompromised individuals, whose immunity to illness (natural and vaccine-induced) had been erased.

Again, though, you're not giving the live vaccine, you're giving the dead vaccine, so the shedding isn't an issue.

I'm not seeing that it sheds for more than a couple weeks. If you have a source for your years, please share it.

Don't have an online source, no. The vaccine was given to healthy people though, to prevent infection. Will try to find the offline source.

You forgot the arsenic used as birth control. LOL

I just looked up Sister Kenny, but it doesn't look like she cured victims while they were ill as much as prevented paralysis. Meaning it doesn't look like it saved lives, only that she helped patients to rehabilitate. Also, note how long each of those treatments took. If we have a polio outbreak and there are 10,000 paralyzed children in NYC (for example), even if we set up facilities and trained staff ahead of time, in all likelihood there would be years-long wait times. Meaning, it's a nice idea, but I don't see it working in a practical sense to prevent paralysis and reduce mortality rates. Then again, maybe someone wants to invest time and money in researching it as an option to the IPV. It would definitely be interesting.
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amother
Puce


 

Post Sun, Dec 08 2019, 5:29 am
amother [ Burlywood ] wrote:
So since we dont know numbers, or maybe they think we do but I dont see how they can possibly prove them, I mark this as an unknown.

After a while the questions with unknown answers start to pile up...

Well some of the numbers - how many people have a given horrible side effect (not ear infections) from a vaccine - can be easily known. Hand out ten billion doses and count how many people got measles within 2 weeks afterwards, without being exposed otherwise.

The ear infections are a question mark, and we could probably find out the answer by giving the MMR at an age when children don't usually experience ear infections. (We do give the second dose at older ages, but it's a second dose, not a first dose, so it's not exactly the same.)
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amother
Burlywood


 

Post Sun, Dec 08 2019, 5:49 am
amother [ Puce ] wrote:
The whole cell wasn't a live vaccine but it did have its problems, which the acellular has mostly solved (at the expense of efficacy).

Regarding smallpox, I haven't done enough research on that one because it's no longer in use and the disease has been eradicated.

Regarding polio. Firstly, the IPV - which is the one given in the US - does not shed or spread the disease to others. That's only the OPV. Secondly, when the OPV does shed, it sheds immunity. Meaning those around the vaccinated individual receive a passive vaccination. However, if there are too many unvaccinated people in a given area, the vaccine can "shed" from a "passively vaccinated" individual to another unvaccinated individual. After that happens too many times, the virus starts to mutate and those who contract it become sick, not immunized. The other thing with the OPV is that the trivalent, which vaccinates against types 1, 2, and 3, can sometimes give an individual who hasn't received the IPV, Polio Type 2. However, if an individual has received three doses of the IPV, the OPV is considered safe, especially the bivalent version which protects only against Types 1 and 3.

The MMR and MMRV rarely give the individual the disease. Technically it's possible, but on a scale of something like one in a billion. These vaccines do not shed.
Usually the only reaction is feeing flu-ey and a bit of fever, if that. Varicella, however, can be contracted after the individual has been vaccinated. Meaning the vaccine is not 100% effective. However, since it was introduced, the number of children experiencing complications from chickenpox has dropped to nearly zero. Very few are hospitalized and none of the vaccinated children have died from the disease.

Again, the pertussis vaccine does not always stop a person from becoming ill from pertussis. But a lighter case is still identifiable as pertussis. Of course once a person is ill with pertussis, that person is contagious - regardless of their vaccination status.

The signs aren't there because these vaccines shed. They're there because if you are the one in a billion who will contract the disease, it's not worth the risk to their patients to allow you in. As for pertussis, there's an assumption that if you were recently vaccinated against it, you might have been exposed to it. They don't want you here during that incubation period. (Years ago we sat in an ER next to a mom who had no idea what her son's vaccination status was, but he was whooping and it sounded like pertussis. Never found out if that's what it was, but we did go the next morning to get boosters. As do many who are exposed or possibly exposed.)


For smallpox you can read "The Poisoned Needle," and for DPT "A Shot in the Dark."
Heavy antivax books but worth a read with your brain's filter on.

About the OPV shedding immunity along with disease- I've never heard it put that way but I've read a similar notion, that the cyclical nature of viruses caused a kind of revaccination on the population whenever there was an outbreak.
(The antivax claim here is that the vaccine messed with the natural order of things which would keep people immune.)

As far as I have read, all live vaccines shed. In bodily fluids, feces, etc. Why the mmr and varicella dont spread beyond the person who got sick from the shot, I dont know, maybe it's not strong enough.
Again, I dont believe the general numbers thrown out because cases go unreported and generally people are told that they were already sick with that disease when they got the shot.
Once in a while you can see a news report with the truth though. Like the measles case in Toronto during the Disneyland outbreak, and the girl had had no contact with anyone who had been to Disneyland. And it was indeed vaccine strain.

I hear what you're saying about the vaccine signs but in that case, they would mention all vaccines, not only the live ones. But they dont.
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amother
Babyblue


 

Post Sun, Dec 08 2019, 5:53 am
Yes obviously there are people coming in illegally who we have no way for screening medically and otherwise.

As far as aspirin and Reyes syndrome -- this is not new -- protocol was changed almost 50 years ago thats why doctors prescribe and advise to give children tylenol and not aspirin. and thats why tylenol for children became ubiquitous (and not aspirin).

Progress. Progress and research. Not perfect. But clear and definite significant overall and majority improvements in the mainstream medical treatments over time.
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amother
Burlywood


 

Post Sun, Dec 08 2019, 7:49 am
southernbubby wrote:
If herd immunity doesn't exist, how did my children and their age mates avoid catching mumps, measles, and rubella?
Yes, part of society was immune as a result of the diseases themselves but even most children my grandchildren's ages are not catching these.
Obviously anti-vaxers are against what the Samoans are doing by mass vaccinating but dozens of Samoan children have died and lack of maternal immunity only accounts for some of them.

Aren't they vaccinated?
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amother
Burlywood


 

Post Sun, Dec 08 2019, 7:57 am
amother [ Puce ] wrote:
Borders aren't secure and we don't know the immunity status of tourists, visitors, and illegals - meaning people in the US are vaxxed than we think, so it's maybe closer to 82% than 97%. Which would mean it's under the threshold necessary for herd immunity, not that herd immunity doesn't work. Meaning if we tighten borders and vax illegals there should be less of a problem.

Vaccines fail some people - yes but if enough people are vaxxed that's not an issue, and never was with vaccines that are 85-97-99% effective.

Lots of adults don't know their immunity status - we need to raise awareness and encourage titers testing. Doesn't mean herd immunity doesn't work, though.

But what all of this does mean is that the illusion of herd immunity, which we all (including a nice chunk of anti-vaxxers) wanted to believe in, is not as high or infallible as we would like to think. It needs to be actively kept up, not taken for granted as a given, because when we take it for granted, it starts to disappear - whether because we let in too many unvaxxed individuals or because we chose not to vaccinate since it's not really necessary anymore. One of the main reasons I vaccinated my older children is because I saw through the quiet created by a years of herd immunity, to the increasing percentages of unvaccinated individuals, and knew outbreaks were on their way.

Herd immunity definitely works, but an illusion that it is strong when in fact it is being actively chipped away, is a dangerous illusion.

I'm guessing that in NYC and CA the percentages of unvaccinated people are higher than in other parts of the country.

So maybe the 96% or whatever the number needs to be to achieve herd immunity, is faulty.
I dont know. I'm not saying I have the answers. I'm only presenting some of the questions I have. And I didnt make this up. If you research some of the early papers on herd immunity, you'll see that it wasnt clearcut. There was a disagreement among the scientists.
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amother
Burlywood


 

Post Sun, Dec 08 2019, 8:21 am
amother [ Puce ] wrote:
Polio was in the sewage but due to high vaccination rates no one got sick. They weren't even really concerned about it, just used it as publicity to raise awareness and took precautions for immunocompromised individuals, whose immunity to illness (natural and vaccine-induced) had been erased.

Again, though, you're not giving the live vaccine, you're giving the dead vaccine, so the shedding isn't an issue.

I'm not seeing that it sheds for more than a couple weeks. If you have a source for your years, please share it.

Don't have an online source, no. The vaccine was given to healthy people though, to prevent infection. Will try to find the offline source.

You forgot the arsenic used as birth control. LOL

I just looked up Sister Kenny, but it doesn't look like she cured victims while they were ill as much as prevented paralysis. Meaning it doesn't look like it saved lives, only that she helped patients to rehabilitate. Also, note how long each of those treatments took. If we have a polio outbreak and there are 10,000 paralyzed children in NYC (for example), even if we set up facilities and trained staff ahead of time, in all likelihood there would be years-long wait times. Meaning, it's a nice idea, but I don't see it working in a practical sense to prevent paralysis and reduce mortality rates. Then again, maybe someone wants to invest time and money in researching it as an option to the IPV. It would definitely be interesting.


I've seen this kind of story a few times. Yes, it's rare but it raises more questions for the unknown stack:
https://www.bbc.com/news/health-34082627

http://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news.....ccine

Sister Kenny did do a lot of rehab but also vitamin C treatment with citrus fruits. I'll try to find a source. The vitamin C was a factor in her patients' recovery.

While we are talking about this, the new polio-like illness that is hitting people who seem to have a regular cold deserves mention.
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amother
Burlywood


 

Post Sun, Dec 08 2019, 8:53 am
So I'm not finding the vitamin C thing associated with Sister Kenny right now. So maybe the place I originally read it had it confused with other drs who were successful in treating polio victims with vitamin C in that same time period. That is what I'm finding in many different places on a quick search.
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amother
Burlywood


 

Post Sun, Dec 08 2019, 8:56 am
amother [ Babyblue ] wrote:
Yes obviously there are people coming in illegally who we have no way for screening medically and otherwise.

As far as aspirin and Reyes syndrome -- this is not new -- protocol was changed almost 50 years ago thats why doctors prescribe and advise to give children tylenol and not aspirin. and thats why tylenol for children became ubiquitous (and not aspirin).

Progress. Progress and research. Not perfect. But clear and definite significant overall and majority improvements in the mainstream medical treatments over time.

I am all for research and progress. But it has to be with transparency. And no conflicts of interest.
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amother
OP


 

Post Fri, Dec 20 2019, 6:55 am
Just another merry day in Vaccinated Utopia:

https://www.foxnews.com/health.....chool
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amother
Copper


 

Post Fri, Dec 20 2019, 7:13 am
amother [ OP ] wrote:
Just another merry day in Vaccinated Utopia:

https://www.foxnews.com/health.....chool


Yay disease!! It’s so nice when people get sick.
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southernbubby




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Dec 20 2019, 7:29 am
I guess that what has to be realized is that some vaccines work better than others and maybe some are not necessary at all. The Samoa tragedy was a combination of a mishandled outbreak and anti-vax activism that targeted a population least likely to survive measles.
What I am saying is that the vaccine issue needs to find a middle path between saying that nobody benefits and saying that everyone benefits. Because the issue has become extremely polarized and is playing both into the hands of big pharma on one side and alternative practioners on the other, it obscures the truth about who could be helped or harmed by vaccines.
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amother
Apricot


 

Post Mon, Dec 23 2019, 11:52 am
warning: profanity
www.howdovaccinescauseautism.com
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amother
OP


 

Post Thu, Jan 23 2020, 8:15 pm
CDC warns that flu vaccine doesn't match with virus

https://www.wdtv.com/content/n......html

and yet NYC mandates the flu vaccine for children younger than 5 who attend school or daycare.

WHY???
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#BestBubby




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jan 23 2020, 9:32 pm
amother [ OP ] wrote:
CDC warns that flu vaccine doesn't match with virus

https://www.wdtv.com/content/n......html

and yet NYC mandates the flu vaccine for children younger than 5 who attend school or daycare.

WHY???


Because politicians receive Millions $$$ from Pharmaceutical Industry to mandate flu vaccines.
And 300 MORE vaccines in the pipeline, YIKES!
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amother
OP


 

Post Sat, Jan 25 2020, 3:19 pm
https://www.npr.org/2020/01/23.....VMYs0

https://nypost.com/2018/08/24/.....x3M8A

These are the very moral and upstanding people we trust when it comes to vaccines. They definitely are only motivated by and concerned with things that are for our good and to our benefit.
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#BestBubby




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Jan 25 2020, 6:01 pm
amother [ OP ] wrote:
https://www.npr.org/2020/01/23.....VMYs0

https://nypost.com/2018/08/24/.....x3M8A


These are the very moral and upstanding people we trust when it comes to vaccines. They definitely are only motivated by and concerned with things that are to for our good and to our benefit.



OP is being sarcastic. The pharmaceutical industry is routinely fined Billions $$$ for FRAUD, yet we are supposed to trust Pharmaceutical Industry when they lie that vaccines are safe and effective.

Here are the headlines of the two links posted above:

Pharmaceutical Executive John Kapoor Sentenced To 66 Months In Prison In Opioid Trial
Former head of CDC arrested on relations abuse charges

Former head of CDC arrested on relations abuse charges
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