How To Be A Perfect Parent - easy (Mishpacha)

ora_43

Mon, Jan 27 2020, 4:25 am

amother [ Apricot ] wrote:

This is what children who've cut off their parents all fear the most. That one day two their own children will learn from their behaviour, cutting them off for perceived ills/faults and rationalise that by saying 'But you cut off your parents, so why can't I cut you off?'

Even if we accept the UTTERLY BIZARRE, not supported by a single scrap of evidence idea that the average child WANTS to cut their parents off and is just looking for an excuse...

You do realize that "but you didn't cut off your parents, and I spent my childhood being traumatized by grandma and grandpa's abuse" would be a much much better one, right?

ora_43

Mon, Jan 27 2020, 4:48 am

ora_43 wrote:

What kind of abuse have you seen that you think is in any way equivalent to not getting a bar mitzvah invite???

Think about what you are saying.

There is no world in which not inviting someone who molested you to your wedding is in any way a slippery slope toward becoming the kind of person who molests people. There is no world in which not inviting someone who beat your mother so badly she was hospitalized to come make her feel unsafe at her grandchild's bar mitzva is a slippery slope towards beating someone.

No, nobody is turning into an abuser just because they don't invite someone who abused them to ruin their happy occasions.

Since someone hugged me for this, I just want to be completely clear that this isn't my personal experience. Not that any of you knew my father anyway, but - he was a very good person. For whatever reason, it's important to me that that be clear.

My examples were based on the stories of people I know who cut off their parents. Let's just say that the above was one of the most mild examples I could think of. I wouldn't be surprised if somewhere out there, there's someone who cut off their parents over something relatively minor - but to say that's a trend?? The only people I know who went full no-contact suffered severe abuse.

mig100

Mon, Jan 27 2020, 6:00 am

Zehava wrote:

Abusers deserve nothing (well maybe a good whack on the head. A girl can dream).
We owe our abusers nothing.
Carrying a child for nine months is a responsibility, not a favor. It doesn’t entitle you to a relationship, or a hello, or anything else.

The difficulty is that the word "abuse" is rather vague.

I shutter when I think what may be considered abuse in 20 years from now. Probably everything

amother

Lemon

Mon, Jan 27 2020, 6:07 am

amother [ Apricot ] wrote:

Yes, I do fear this. But I know that if they cut me off, it will be because I was a horrible and abusive mother. It will not be because of the fact that I cut contact with my own mother.

If my children cut contact with me when they are adults, I will know that I deserved it and that I was no better than my own mother. And I will either cry quietly and suffer in silence or take the step I should've taken when they were younger and kill myself, depending.

And maybe you should watch your mouth and keyboard because I'm not easily triggered but you certainly triggered me just now.

Zehava

Mon, Jan 27 2020, 6:25 am

amother [ Lemon ] wrote:

Honey, take a deep breath. Get off this thread or get off imamother altogether. Plenty of personality disordered, clueless, and 1950s style posters here. We both know they’re out in the real world there’s no reason why they can’t get online to further abuse others.
You are good
You are worthy
You matter
I’ll go out on a limb and say that you’re a great mom and to your kids you are their world. I hope you don’t read this post but if you do, take this virtual hug and get off imamother stat.

allthingsblue

Mon, Jan 27 2020, 7:11 am

amother [ Bronze ] wrote:

Neither did the people whom the letter was intended for.
EDIT: Hugs literally trigger me.

So where was the public disclaimer that said "this letter only applies to children who had parents who made reasonable efforts to parent properly, and who loved their children and did not abuse them in any way"?

amother

Lawngreen

Mon, Jan 27 2020, 7:27 am

allthingsblue wrote:

Abuse them in ANY way? That is the issue in this thread. Physical and severe abuse is one thing. But could kids just decide that their parents annoying behavior is abuse and cut them off? That's where I disagree.

saw50st8

Mon, Jan 27 2020, 7:34 am

FranticFrummie wrote:

Cutting people off is definitely a "thing" these days. Instead of teaching boundaries, just take the easy way out. It makes it harder to know when you really should remove yourself from the relationship, and when you just need to step back and do some deeper therapy for yourself......

It has been done forever in Judaism. If your child went OTD, you were supposed to cut them off, sit shiva for them and treat them as if they were dead.

amother

Turquoise

Mon, Jan 27 2020, 7:34 am

amother [ Amethyst ] wrote:

I actually see it as a sign of emotional health when a child cuts off with a toxic abusive parent (yes, even emotional abuse can feel the same as being thrown down the steps or even worse).

I've seen it both ways and those who cut off ended up having healthy homes. Those who were pressured and couldn't set that boundary, years later, I have seen lots of disfunction in those families.

Interesting that you've seen this because I haven't. I know someone who has cut off his father for very good reasons. Guess what? The toxic behavior didn't stop by his father. Cutting someone off is not enough, there has to be a huge effort to change behavior as well. This son is acting just like his father to his own son, even though he acknowledges his father's abuse, has no contact, etc. If only life were that simple and that was all that was needed to change ingrained behaviors.

But that wasn't even what I was talking about. There are some parents that are so horrific that no-one in their right mind will argue that the children should keep in contact. But there are many more, who are imperfect parents, have been physically or verbally abusive at some point but are not in the same category of horrific - it is these children who I am addressing. Children who grew up with parents like mine.

Cutting off parents completely is really a huge step not to be taken lightly but here on this thread and from what I have heard IRL there seems to be almost no thought process that not all situations warrant that extreme step.

Ungrateful children have always existed, wasn't it Shakespeare who said "sharper than a serpents tooth is an ungrateful child"? But nowadays ungrateful children seem to be almost given sainthood.

amother

Turquoise

Mon, Jan 27 2020, 7:38 am

amother [ Lemon ] wrote:

Honey were all triggered here on this thread.

Just to let you know, that is not true. I know a few people who cut off regular normal parents because of mistakes they have made. I said this here once before, and someone said I don't know the whole story. Yes I do. Regular normal parents can make really big mistakes, because they are human and humans do those things. Really big mistakes. Still they do not deserve to be completely cut off.

amother

Turquoise

Mon, Jan 27 2020, 7:40 am

Zehava wrote:

Only vague to those who haven’t experienced it.
Someone who lives with CPTSD their entire life is very clear on what the word means.

Zehava, your experience is not 100% everyone's experience. Not every person who posted on this thread or who says this IRL really lives with the experiences you did. It's not a fact across the board.

allthingsblue

Mon, Jan 27 2020, 7:41 am

amother [ Turquoise ] wrote:

If the verbal abuse continues, and/or is directed at the grandchildren, then cutting off may be necessary.

amother

Turquoise

Mon, Jan 27 2020, 7:43 am

Zehava wrote:

They all “respect” their parents. So no. We are not TURNING INTO THEM. We treat our innocent children with kindness and respect. Unlike them. We set boundaries. Unlike them. We face our demons head on. Unlike them.

Yup, this is my father's voice. He said the same thing. Because the abuse was emotional rather than physical, he was not doing what OTHERS did. Ok. Maybe this is true for you, but this is not true for many, many others.

Sometimes I think that imamother is a really naive place to be.

thunderstorm

Mon, Jan 27 2020, 7:49 am

amother [ Turquoise ] wrote:

Oh Yes? Who do I sound like?

It happens that it took a lot of REAL serious work for me to set boundaries. This was not easy for me at all.

As many of you know, we tend to get enmeshed with our abusers and we feel that we HAVE to give in to everything they want. It is such a liberating feeling to know that I make the decisions and I'm no longer dancing to their tune. Believe me, do you really think that an occasional call and being invited to simchos is enough for them? But at least I take the high road and I'm not allowing MYSELF yo turn into the abuser. You know, there's a fine line between defense and abuse. By acting like your abusers, you are TURNING INTO THEM. Think about this.

you are lucky that after repeatedly setting boundaries those that you were setting them with eventually accepted them. Some people out there will not accept them NO MATTER WHAT . That’s why there are those left with no choice but to block them completely. You have been blessed to be successful with boundaries. Many people are. But quite a few aren’t , no matter how hard they try and persevere. These are the people that are left with no choice.

amother

Lemon

Mon, Jan 27 2020, 7:55 am

amother [ Lawngreen ] wrote:

So physical and severe abuse that you can see is one thing. But constant verbal and emotional abuse, to the point where your child tries to kill herself as a teenager, that's not abuse, that child shouldn't cut her parent out of her life.

I have very few examples of when my mother physically abused me. Some of the best examples I have, that exist, have been disqualified and justified by family and friends.

Verbal abuse doesn't leave physical scars. Many were the times I wished I had physical scars and that she physically abused me. Because then, at least, I would have proof to show people like you, who didn't believe me and refused to admit that mothers can be abusers.

thunderstorm

Mon, Jan 27 2020, 8:00 am

amother [ Aubergine ] wrote:

I think the problem with this thread is indicitive of the problem we have currently in society in general, which is people are 100% postitive that the way they experiance a situation = a universal truth.

There are cases of abusive parents where the children have been empowered by rabbanim and therapists to cut off to end the cycle of abuse and they should be commended.

There are cases where there is alienation when I chid/ spouse of a child is emotionally unhealthy and twists the reality so that therapists/rabbanim recomend cutting out healthy and loving parents, which is extremely painful and detrimental in the long term for both sides.

Then you have cases where the parents are far from perfect and have made some mistakes but are ultimatley good people who can be worked with who have children who are aso far from perfect but are ultimatley good peple who can be worked with. The difficulty is that sometimes well meaning people (other family members, lay people, unexperianced therapists "life coaches" ect.) get involved and instead of helping the imperfect but willing to change people resolve the issues, they reccomend cutting of - which hurts EVERYONE. In the long run the way you know if cutting of was a good move is if you are happier or healthier as a result.

Signed; someone who was told by a therapist to cut off, did so and was miserable, and instead switched to a more qualified therapist who helped repair the relationship.

I am also aware that plenty of the situations fall into the fall into the first to catagories - lets all breath and recognize that it is highly unlikley that all cases of parental alienation are equal.

Of course. No two situations are the same. Nothing is black and white.

amother

Turquoise

Mon, Jan 27 2020, 8:01 am

amother [ Lemon ] wrote:

I'm sorry for what I said before, if you think I meant you. I didn't. I was also not physically abused so I can understand you. I do believe you.

I guess I'm talking about those parents who were emotionally abusive and hurtful but at the same time were SOMETIMES good parents. There are plenty of children of parents like this.

I wasn't talking about your situation at all.