How To Be A Perfect Parent - easy (Mishpacha)

amother

Honeydew

Mon, Jan 27 2020, 5:44 pm

amother [ Lemon ] wrote:

Obviously if the 5yo continues to be abused into adulthood, then s/he did something wrong and deserved that kind of treatment. Because good parents like s/he had don't act "abusively" just because. It could be they didn't act properly when the child was small, but if those actions continue the child did something to cause the parent to react that way. And if the child (now an adult) would just shape up, the parent would act the way the child wants. Because the child wouldn't be constantly hurting the parent and the parent would be able to be nice. How do you expect a parent who is constantly being mistreated by his/her child to act lovingly towards that child? This parent stayed up with the child when s/he threw up and all night long when the child was a baby and worked their tuchis off to send the child to school and make sure s/he did well and pay for the wedding and bar/bat mitzvah and buy clothes and put food on the table. How can you say the parent did wrong? S/he did the best s/he could, just like every other parent. If the child has an issue with that, then the issue belongs to the child. Spoiled ungrateful brat who doesn't deserve any of the good things or love or help the parent showered him/her with. If that child has an issue with the parent, s/he can be the adult and grow up and shape up and fix their problematic behavior (which was always problematic) and then s/he'll see that the parent was always loving and good.
You can't be THAT dense not to get it. Come ON.

Please put a /sarcasm alert on your post... someone might take you seriously.

amother

Seashell

Tue, Jan 28 2020, 1:50 pm

amother [ Lemon ] wrote:

Whoa.

I thought my mother came back to life for a minute there.

amother

Scarlet

Fri, Jan 31 2020, 12:48 am

amother [ Honeydew ] wrote:

ecto, sometimes I get really frustrated by your stuck-in-the-yeshivish-box way of responding to posts.

Do you have access to any such situation IRL, where you are privy to all the details, that you are such an authority to say that it's in style to cut off your parents??

No one makes that decision lightly unless they themselves have severe issues, in which case, yes, their kids may very well cut them off one day!

I almost moved out of my house when I was 19 years old (I live in Brooklyn, where it would've been scandalous to board elsewhere). My therapist was encouraging it, but I was very torn. I spoke to a Rav, who ultimately told me not to do it at the time and in the specific circumstances. But if things had gotten worse from there, he would've told me to do so. I was not planning on cutting off from my parents, but my reasons for considering moving out were legitimate. My heart goes out to those who have had to make such painful decisions.

Are you on the severe parental abuse forum? I know you're not, ecto, because I am, and we know each other's screen names. You have NO IDEA what it means to go through this kind of pain. NONE.

Get off your high horse, please.

I'm sorry for the harsh tone of this post. I was very triggered.

Thank you for writing this. I find ectomorphs post to be infuriating. I couldn't agree with you more.

amother

Lemon

Fri, Jan 31 2020, 1:03 am

amother [ Purple ] wrote:

Cutting off with parents has become normalized behavior.

Many of us have very difficult and we deal with it.

The repercussions of cutting off with parents is vast. In the long it is unhealthy.

Recently someone a family had a a child with leukemia and the child recovered. Soon, the next child got stage 4 cancer. The father reconciled with his own father who he did not see for years and the second child recovered completely. I do not know hashms chesbonos but their may be a connection.

That's very sad.

But come on. A) we don't know the full story, B) everyone has their tikkun and maybe in this case it wasn't justified, but that doesn't mean that it is never justified, C) just like you said, we don't know Hashem's cheshbonos so assuming we do - like you assume in your post - is just plain wrong. Especially if it's not your own life you're judging but someone else's. Trying to figure out what you did to cause something is fine, but it's not fine when you examine someone else's life and try to figure out why they deserved to suffer and then say either "oh well they did teshuva so they stopped suffering" or "if they had done teshuva they might not have suffered." That's just EVIL.

amother

Forestgreen

Fri, Jan 31 2020, 5:03 am

The judgement on here is so hurtful.
Obviously, not every situation where a child cut off contact is valid, there are so many different circumstances.
But, usually, if someone completely cut off contact with their parents, they had a horror of a childhood, with the emotional/mental/physical probably continuing into adulthood. And, believe it or not, severing a relationship, even with a severely abusive parent can still be immensely painful. Everyone wants to believe that their parent loves them, and to face reality can be excruciating. Usually Rabanim and professionals are consulted with extensively before such a painful, but sometimes necessary decision.
Sometimes it's between deciding whether to stay in touch, and suffer daily, and be a stressed out wife and mother, or not, and being able to provide some sort of normal life for your family.
These are people who were probably jealous of you, perfectly pleasing child with perfect parents, all throughout their childhood, where all they wanted was to belong to a normal, predictable household and have their basic needs taken care of by the ones who brought them into the world. Instead they came home to chaos and abuse and neglect every single day.
Now, as adults they continue being jealous of you, who can spend Yom Tov with family, have family involved in your daily life, and instead, they're again looking in from the outside, missing out on all the "normal" stuff.
And not only that, you judge them, instead of being compassionate.
They suffered so much, if you have no room for some compassion in your heart, at least don't judge, thank Hashem that you don't understand.
Signed, belong to severely abusive parent forum, but bh haven't come to the point of having to cut off contact.
Thanks for reading

amother

Scarlet

Fri, Jan 31 2020, 11:35 am

It's threads like this that make me want to leave imamother for good. It's appalling to me how many people are so unaware of the abuse and the consequences of abuse that some people go through. It's mind boggling to me. I'm so flabbergasted I don't even feel that I can write something cohesive. This is why I think forums where people just yent and vent about things that they know nothing about are really destructive and can cause lots of harm and hurt to lots of people. I get some benefits from imamother, but threads like this make me wonder if the benefits outweigh the costs.

In some cases, and yes I hope they are rare, the best thing a person can do for their life, for their mental health, for their physical health, for their sanity is cut a parent out. Thank G-D that a lot of people on this thread don't know what pain and suffering would lead to that decision, but there are a lot of children of abusive parents who grow up and continue to be abused, harassed, attacked or watch such a sick amount of dysfunction and know that cutting off or severely limiting contact is the only way they can function and raise their own children in a happy and healthy way.

But there have been so many wise posters on this thread who have said so many important things- and then there are those who choose to block it out and continue to make believe that they know everything and that there can't ever be a reason to get away from a parent. So whatever I write won't really make a difference. However I will write on, because I just want people to know that yes, sometimes it is justified and just because someone is a parent they don't have a right to abuse their authority and position to destroy the lives of other human beings.

We are not talking about being difficult or a mom nagging her kids to do their homework and a dad not showing up to enough baseball games or parents not giving their kids money to buy the latest in style clothes. We are talking about total indefensible destruction. Telling an impressionable child things that you wouldn't tell your worst enemy and twisting their brains up in the worst way. Locking them in a room and screaming at them for HOURS. Punching a teenage girl so hard that they get a black eye and their jaw is dislocated for life. Pushing them on the floor and kicking them in the head with shoes on so hard that they get a concussion. Ripping up sefarim at the Shabbos table ON Shabbos. Not sure if I need to go on because those who want to deny, will. And those who understand, understand.

This site just makes me so upset and I think for my own self-care- I need to get out. So many unhealthy and unaware posters on here it really makes me so upset. And turquoise- I really take issue with so many of your posts- because there are so many of us who work our backs off improving our character, going against the grain, going against what is most natural to us- to scream, yell, criticize, shame, blame- AND WE RAISE OUR KIDS DIFFERENTLY THAN WE WERE RAISED. So just because your random aunt and uncle and second cousin didn't do that, doesn't mean that so many of us who were tortured as children don't as well. We are warriors. We are survivors. We stand in a place that so many others can't stand and we are so much closer to Hashem and truth because of it. We live a life of conquering ourselves. We live a life of middos refinement. I so take issue with so many of your posts and I find them so hurtful and really disrespectful. But it's ok, because I know who I am and what I've been through and what I've done to survive and thrive and it really doesn't matter what you or those like you think or say.

And yes, smart Rabbis who are aware of the damage abuse does WILL advise COMPLETE CUTOFF. And you doubting it doesn't change that.

#BestBubby

Fri, Jan 31 2020, 1:18 pm

amother [ Purple ] wrote:

I understand that in RARE cases it may be necessary to cut off contact with abusive parents.
But this "heter" is being abused. Not every "difficult" parent may be cut off/Kareis.

Similar story in Jewish magazine of a family feud (over yerusha?) where siblings divided into two camps with no contact and insisted their children carry on the feud. A grandchild realized the family had an unusual high number of tragedies: Cancer, Older Singles, Infertility. The grandchild wrote up a list of all family members on BOTH sides who needed a Yeshua and asked every family member to sign a shtar (contract) that they forgive everyone and will invite BOTH sides to all simchas. After everyone signed the contract, the family experienced many Yeshuos.

Imagine how much more tragedy one can bring upon oneself for cutting off a Parent!
Think about it!

#BestBubby

Fri, Jan 31 2020, 1:47 pm

amother [ Scarlet ] wrote:

I am so sorry for what you went through.

Please understand, when a poster says that SOMETIMES cutting off a parent is not right,
the poster is not talking specifically about YOU and YOUR parents.
This is not any judgment or minimizing of your experiences.

There are Billions of Parents and Billions of Children so it is not correct to say that
EVERY child who cuts off a parent is justified. YOU don't know all the details so don't
automatically JUDGE EVERY parent as guilty and deserving of being cut off.

amother

Lemon

Sat, Feb 01 2020, 2:31 pm

#BestBubby wrote:

Please understand that this is not nearly as rare as you think it is. And that you cannot just abuse the word "kareis" to mean what you want it to mean, when that's not in line with halacha.

Your story about a family feud has NOTHING to do with children who survived parental abuse. Your story shows how stupid fights like Kamtz and Bar Kamtza are destructive and it CLAIMS TO KNOW why certain things happened to certain people (if the story is even true).

Bringing such a mashal here is DESTRUCTIVE and hurtful, and completely disconnected from reality.

#BestBubby wrote:

If at all possible, one should maintain LIMITED contact with difficult parents

short "good shobbos" phone call

invite to simchas - not necessarily seat at your table

Mail a card or letter with nachas news and some photos.

If not harmful to children - allow visits. Maybe another relative can bring the children
if you cannot come.

Without knowing a given situation this is horrible advice. Who are you to decide what is possible and not possible?

Who are you to decide what appropriate behavior towards abusive parents is?

Each person decides based on his or her own situation, based on knowledge of the abusive parent and how the dynamics work, consulting with a rabbi, therapist, both, or no one.

Save your advice for situations you understand better.

#BestBubby wrote:

So here's part of what you don't understand.

We have been told many times that "SOMETIMES" cutting off a parent is not right, hint hint your situation does not justify it. We have been told many times that it is only justified in CERTAIN EXTREME situations which aren't ours, and we've been told that explicitly.

Then, when we get into detail, gut-wrenching details of everything we went through, accounts which sometimes take us hours or days to get over the telling of, spilling our guts to strangers in an effort to educate the public and hopes of receiving validation and sympathy and a kinder eye, we get told this: "SOMETIMES cutting off a parent is not right, but no one talked about YOU SPECIFICALLY or YOUR PARENTS. This isn't judging YOU or any of YOUR experiences. We're talking IN GENERAL. Not every child who cuts off a parent is justified, even if [now we understand that] in YOUR case that might have been the right thing to do."

Most people don't even bother saying "even if in your case it was definitely the right thing to do" it's always "might" so that there is no commitment, only a facade of acceptance before the yenta goes off to talk about whether we were justified.

Here's the thing. Cutting off a parent is so brutally painful that the VAST MAJORITY of us only do it as a last resort, when the choice is between becoming that parent, killing ourselves, or continuing contact.

When you start talking all know-it-all about how "SOMETIMES" this isn't okay, you are essentially saying that the default is that it is not okay to cut off a parent, and anyone who does that needs to justify themselves if they want legitimacy. You would NEVER EVER say such a thing about a rape victim, and if I DARED say that "SOMETIMES" people who claim rape are actually rapists themselves or want to get back at a boyfriend for breaking up, you would eat me alive. Yet when it comes to abuse by a parent, something ongoing during a person's most tender, vulnerable, and formative years, somehow the onus of proof is on us to prove that we are justified not in suing them, not in making noise, not in trying to ruin them, but in cutting contact TO SAVE OURSELVES.

The default is not "SOMETIMES" it is justified but USUALLY it is jusitified. The default is that someone who has cut contact is JUSTIFIED and deserves support and legitimacy, not to be trampled on and then halfheartedly apologized to when you realize that you judged someone innocent who suffered a childhood of abuse.

And when you make your bogus "SOMETIMES" claims, you are trampling victims of parental abuse. It is not forgivable. And YES, you WERE JUDGING US before we came out and gave you details you did not deserve to hear in our efforts to help the next victims.

So don't claim you weren't judging us. Because you were. We were part of the "general group" you feel free to judge and we only kinda sorta got out of that judgement by telling you details that were none of your business in the first place.