The concept of "privilege"

amother

Black

Tue, Feb 11 2020, 1:32 pm

Quote:

It just got me thinking. It's hard to hear her go on about this, when she is oblivious to her own "unearned" privilege. Just wanted some opinions. And to clarify, I'm not trying to debate the existence of undue racial/ethnic privilege. I'm mulling over the fact that there are many other sources of privilege as well, that this coworker in particular, is benefiting from, that are not acknowleged.

I think they are very well acknowledged - just not by your 20something coworker. Most of us have blind-spots.

ora_43

Tue, Feb 11 2020, 2:56 pm

I think that in general there is awareness of other kinds of "privilege." Including agism, look-ism, etc.

But yeah, people tend to be more interested in the privilege they don't have than what they do. I can see how it would be frustrating to hear a coworker complain about ways that you're privileged, when in some ways you have it harder.

Although I will say, youth is a privilege everyone gets at some point in life, and beauty is mostly random - a beautiful person can have an average-looking child and vice versa, so that there's no one group in society with a monopoly on thin, beautiful people (although rich and white people are disproportionately advantaged here, since 1. the societal model of beauty is largely based on white beauty, and 2. with enough money you can have straight teeth, nutritious and healthy food, daily workouts, etc).

White privilege is a lot less evenly distributed.

And prejudice against black people has a much much uglier history. There hasn't been a point in US history where average-looking people were enslaved, or where people over the age of 30 could be killed basically at random with nobody going to jail for it.

There's also a difference between being overlooked, and being suspected of being a criminal (or whatever other negative stereotypes).

... Not that we need to get into "who has it worse." But I think white (and white-passing) people need to be careful about dismissing prejudice against black people as just another one of many things that can be difficult about life. On an individual level there might not be much difference between society-level prejudice and the "stuff" we all have (or don't) as individuals - health, beauty, supportive family, brains, etc - but on a societal level there's a big difference.

shaqued_almond

Tue, Feb 11 2020, 4:38 pm

Here's my 2 cents.
1) I grew up lower middle class but I always felt poorer to my peers because many times I was hungry without food and I couldn't have a lot of the stuff others got. We were a relatively big family but it was still a step up from how my mom grew up. My mom is the child of orphans and they didn't have a lot. Only once I got married to my business owner husband I noticed though how much I undervalued myself. Still to this day I have low expectations of myself but I'm working on it. For example I've started dancing and I found out that I'm actually not horrible at it. The point is that what separates people who do improve on their life is hard work and divine will. Hashem helps who helps himself and working on oneself is a big Bracha! What I dislike about the privilege debate is that it doesn't encourage people enough to push themselves. One might not be the best but one can always get better. In my simple example with dancing, I never thought I could do it and I'm not talented or amazing at it however I'm not afraid to do it anymore. It makes me think well maybe there's more things I should try.

2) hashem purposefully gives out privilege so that we can help one another. Merely teaching people they have privilege, or worse shaming them for it, doesn't mean anything until you can show them what to do with it. I.e. when women weren't allowed to vote it was privileged men who were allowed that overturned the prohibition. At the same time the men were still allowed to vote themselves.

amother

Burlywood

Tue, Feb 11 2020, 4:48 pm

Well, I work in nyc dept. Of education in poor, "bad" neighborhoods....so in these nyc schools, there is only "shachar" privilege and whites dont have any priveleges....such that majority of the administration and school officials in higher positions are going to be "shachar"...so, I especially hate it when others say there's no such thing as racism against white....it definitely happens in bad neighborhoods within nyc doe.

FranticFrummie

Tue, Feb 11 2020, 6:14 pm

I believe the word that everyone is looking for, is "intersectionality". When privileges and disadvantages overlap in complicated ways.

A friend of mine told me about an exercise she did in college once. All kinds of people lined up on the center line of a basketball court. For each privilege, you got a step forward, but for each disadvantage, you got a step back. It's interesting to see where everyone ends up in the end - and what they plan on doing with the information.

White, female, invisible disability, over 40. Male, Hispanic, in a wheelchair, IQ of 160 and full scholarship to the university of his choice. Black, grew up in the projects, was exposed to lead paint as a child, mother was only 14 years old. Biracial light skinned Black woman, gorgeous features, gets a job as a supermodel. Dark skinned Black women are considered unattractive, and passed over for jobs. Overweight white male with college degree, passed over for younger, more fit looking applicant with less qualifications.

Life is complicated. We are all the result of our upbringing and environment, as well as the circles we move in. Financial status, class, caste, lightness or darkness of skin, these all do make a difference - not only in how others see us, but in how we see ourselves.

amother

Seafoam

Tue, Feb 11 2020, 6:47 pm

SixOfWands wrote:

Of course white privilege is ubiquitous. From not having to be concerned about our kids' hairstyles to not having to worry about driving in certain neighborhoods to it being easier to hale a cab to things as silly as "flesh" colored bandages.

Its not racism, per se.

The fact that there is white privilege doesn't negate other privileges.

I'm white and chassidish and in the times that we had to hail cabs they never stopped for us either. They assumed our destination was Brooklyn and weren't interested in going there. Thank G-D for Uber!!!

naturalmom5

Tue, Feb 11 2020, 7:08 pm

Rappel wrote:

You've hit the nail on the head.

Example: I have "religious woman's privilege" - if I'm standing at a hitchhiking station, I'm likely to get a ride fairly quickly.[/b] If I'm walking through a security check, they wave me right through. If I'm carrying something heavy, I'm 90% certain to receive an offer of help.

However, I lack "man's privilege" - the ability to chill out and be accepted in a random group of guys, to be called on to fix mechanical/electrical things, and to be taken seriously at an auto-repair shop.

So should I spent my life decrying all the features I lack? Or should I appreciate what I have, and use it to my advantage?

Not in Lakewood LOL

amother

Tue, Feb 11 2020, 8:58 pm

ora_43 wrote:

The points you make are excellent regarding viewing the issue from an individual perspective vs. a societal perspective.

amother

Turquoise

Tue, Feb 11 2020, 9:00 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

I wanted to get some ideas on the following concept.

This began at work, with statements frequently made by one of my coworkers. We all work in a department in which everybody by necessity shares the same degree and licensing, ie, the same credentials. She is in her late twenties, African American, and frequently talks about white privilege.

Obviously I understand the concept of historical discriminatory treatment of various ethnic groups and the toll it took on their ability to move forward, and I understand as well that there are forces at play today as well which affect people based on ethnicity, gender, national origin, etc.

But my question is this. There are so many other invisible forces at play, which confer privilege, that nobody speaks about. And I suppose the reason I am reacting to this particular woman is as follows: She is tall, slim, very attractive. She is also bright, well-spoken, and has many other positive traits. But so do the majority of the other individuals in the department.

Perhaps because of her youth, and the fact that she grew up very pretty, she doesn't recognize that this quality confers major benefits. But it absolutely does. She, and others in a similar category, are listened to, acknowledged by the supervisory staff, liked and accepted, in ways that the older, frumpier among us are not.

I am not talking about being mistreated, or z-xualized. That is something different entirely. It is hardly new information that physical qualities such as objective attractiveness, height, body size, etc. confer privilege in society, such as getting jobs, being promoted, etc.

It just got me thinking. It's hard to hear her go on about this, when she is oblivious to her own "unearned" privilege. Just wanted some opinions. And to clarify, I'm not trying to debate the existence of undue racial/ethnic privilege. I'm mulling over the fact that there are many other sources of privilege as well, that this coworker in particular, is benefiting from, that are not acknowleged.

[Mod note - please keep this thread clear of politics. If you want to bring anything political into it, start a spin off in the politics forum]

Brilliant.

amother

Turquoise

Tue, Feb 11 2020, 9:15 pm

avrahamama wrote:

I wish I could genuinely feel the above. But I've heard many times in shiuri. That it's a Torah concept that the rich stay rich and poor stay poor. and for the most part I see that is the reality.

Also OP try not to engage with your coworkers about race and privilege. I feel like it's a bait. And it can get you in big trouble I don't see any good coming of it.

The concept of privilege is so ingrained that to deny it is considered racism. You don't want to go there...

What kind of Torah concept is that??? I listen to shiurim all the time and have a pretty good Torah education. I have never heard of this concept. Care to point me to some sources?

avrahamama

Tue, Feb 11 2020, 9:36 pm

amother [ Turquoise ] wrote:

What kind of Torah concept is that??? I listen to shiurim all the time and have a pretty good Torah education. I have never heard of this concept. Care to point me to some sources?

I honestly don't have sources. I remember reading it in a Torah Wellsprings booklet. Rabbi Elimelech Biderman. Maybe in his Chanukah one?

I know I've seen it other places but can't remember where.

I'm not making any absolute claims. Just something I once heard. And it struck me.

naturalmom5

Tue, Feb 11 2020, 9:40 pm

avrahamama wrote:

Except that the Gamarra in Shabbos says that money is a spinning wheel , one generation is rich , the same family will be poor in 2 generation

t was taught, R. Eleazar ha-Kappar said: Let one always pray to be spared this fate [poverty], for if he does not descend [to poverty] his son will, and if not his son, his grandson, for it is said, because that for [bi-gelal] this thing, [etc.].20 The School of R. Ishmael taught: It is a wheel [galal] that revolves in the world.21 R. Joseph said: We hold [as tradition] that a Rabbinical student will not suffer poverty. But we see that he does suffer poverty? Even if he suffers poverty, he [nevertheless] does not engage in begging.22 R. Hiyya said to his wife: When a poor man comes, be quick to offer him bread, so that others may be quick to offer it to your children. You curse them! she exclaimed. A verse is written, he replied: 'because that for [bi-gelal] this thing', whereon the School of R. Ishmael taught: It is a wheel that revolves in the world. It was taught R. Gamaliel Beribbi23 said: And he shall give24 thee mercy, and have compassion upon thee, and multiply thee:25 he Who is merciful to others, mercy is shown to him by Heaven, while he who is not merciful to others, mercy is not shown to him by Heaven.26

Shabbos 151b

Last edited by naturalmom5 on Tue, Feb 11 2020, 10:28 pm; edited 2 times in total

#BestBubby

Tue, Feb 11 2020, 9:46 pm

FranticFrummie wrote:

I think this is a bad exercise. Yes, people are disadvantaged but people who work hard usually succeed. There are many "rags to riches" success stories in USA - and it is the people who work hard and don't play the I'M A VICTIM CARD who succeed.

This is Socialist Indoctrination that everyone is a victim who cannot succeed with out
an all powerful government to intervene.

avrahamama

Tue, Feb 11 2020, 10:00 pm

naturalmom5 wrote:

BZH we should all FEEL RICH regardless. Thanks for that!

goodmorning

Tue, Feb 11 2020, 10:26 pm

avrahamama wrote:

See Bava Kamma 92a, where there is a discussion of a saying "עניא אזלא עניותא, poverty follows the poor" and a proof from bikkurim (where the kohanim would return the golden/silver baskets to their wealthy owners but not return the willow baskets to their poor owners).

southernbubby

Wed, Feb 12 2020, 3:55 am

Fox news extra had a clip about Dolly Parton and her charitable giving of millions of children's books in order to promote literacy and self esteem.
Dolly grew up as one of 12 children born to an illiterate couple in the Tennessee Smokey mountains. Her 100 millionth book donation was to the Library of Congress and it was about a coat that her mother made for her out of scraps of material. Most kids would have been ashamed of the coat but she was proud because her mom made it just for her.
I am not sure that being white was what made a difference for Dolly Parton because numerous black entertainers were also very successful.
She simply had a winning attitude.