Gotta love these idealistic young couples...

penguin

Mon, Feb 17 2020, 9:54 pm

I'm still waiting for the letter from one of our posters here to the Ami column about the challenges of being a shvigger. I tried to search for that thread but I guess I'm not getting the right words.

Based on what I remember, the shvigger says she enjoys hosting her kids and works hard to make them a beautiful Shabbos (she's up late Thurs night to make e/t fresh because she doesn't like frozen food? challos?). When Shabbos is over she's tired & wants to clean the house and go to sleep early.

Alas, her son in law can't be torn away from the minyan he loves to attend for Maariv, which finishes very late. So her kids are still around til late.

I would love the OP of that thread to send it to Ami or give one of us permission to do so. I'm very curious what their experts will do with the issue.

amother

Smokey

Mon, Feb 17 2020, 11:16 pm

amother [ Blonde ] wrote:

When I had these circumstances, I took it as a sign that marrying a learning boy was not for me. So I married a serious ben torah who works.
My sister in the same circumstances dated for a while until she found the right one and worked on her degree meanwhile and got herself a great job.
My next sister will wait a bit before starting to date so she can work on her degree (to be paid for with student loans + maaser money from her siblings).
We all took different paths using the tools and circumstances we were given.

I do admit that the system where teachers make it seem that learning is the ONLY option is a huge problem. Women like me shouldn't feel second rate. If anything sometimes our sacrifices are worth more. (Husband is less available to help out, yet we still encourage learning and davening even if it means doing morning/evening routines with the kids all on our own, etc)

Blonde: you said it very well.
All my friends married learning boys but I could not see myself running to work with small children.
This was a hard pill for my father to swallow but I was always true to myself.
I married my husband who has a learning disability but is a true oved hashem and spends every minute doing mitzvos, masim tovim, building Mosdos..
Ironically, I learn (textual) all the time (MUssar, chasidus, chumash, nach, midrash raba etc.)

amother

Smokey

Tue, Feb 18 2020, 12:37 pm

amother [ Aqua ] wrote:

Iow, you found a sincerely frum husband, who wanted a very frum wife. But what a lot of posters are saying, is that there are very few of those around outside of the yeshiva framework.

If people would get past their gaavo, they would find working boys who are yerei shamayim.

amother

Seafoam

Tue, Feb 18 2020, 12:42 pm

amother [ Smokey ] wrote:

If people would get past their gaavo, they would find working boys who are yerei shamayim.

I can’t speak for everyone but I know I tried to make it work with working guys.. and it just couldn’t work out.
It was usually those guys who were watching movies, hanging out, not careful about minyanim..
I’m sure there are since working guys with lots of yiras shamayim out there but I wasn’t zocheh to meet one when I was in my 20’s and dating.
You can’t call it gaivah if you don’t know whether or not people tried traveling down that road.

amother

Indigo

Tue, Feb 18 2020, 12:58 pm

I married a working guy because I couldn't handle the kollel lifesty;e. He's a great guy, and as I look around much more serious about being kovah itim. coming on time to shul then many of his contemporaries. buy he does listen to secular music, watch movies... and yes it does bother me. Its not the type of home that I invisioned. I still think I struck gold with him considering my own "package" but totally understand girls who wouldn't marry a guy who listens to secular music * movies came after marriage. personally I don't understand marrying a guy in kollel who watches secular movies but seems like they exist as well.

amother

Teal

Tue, Feb 18 2020, 1:15 pm

amother [ Honeydew ] wrote:

I have a relative who's a working boy, watches movies, secular music but wants a girl who dresses perfectly tznius, always wears stockings etx. Is that realistic? I don't know.

There are girls who wear stockings and watch movies. It’s not so crazy.

amother

Aqua

Wed, Feb 19 2020, 9:30 am

amother [ Smokey ] wrote:

If people would get past their gaavo, they would find working boys who are yerei shamayim.

What do you base this statement on?
If a husband is very worldly, goes to sporting events, movies, and is fairly involved in the secular stuff it is unlikely he would be interested in marrying a girl who only reads the Hamodia and only goes to frum events and won't want their kids to be exposed to certain things. This isn't being a yirei shamayim, per say, you can be very G-d fearing and do all of the above. It's an outlook, a haskafa, a life style. It is very unusual to find young men like that, full out working in the secular world who are interested in that sheltered lifestyle. Usually men like that stayed in a yeshiva framework for quite some time before leaving. So you are more likely to find men like that in their 30s, but unlikely that your average single 25 year old will be like that.
And re: the person who mentioned the single guy she knows who watches tv but wants a girl who wears stockings. That's just for the superficiality, probably he feels he needs to because of his family. But I bet he still wants someone who will watch tv with him and won't give him grief about it. And I wouldn't be surprised if he'd like his wife to take her stockings off when they go on vacation.

watergirl

Wed, Feb 19 2020, 9:54 am

amother [ Aqua ] wrote:

Your response shows how sadly frequently people destroy what a "working boy" is. This is the post you replied to:

If people would get past their gaavo, they would find working boys who are yerei shamayim.

The amother you replied to only said "working boy". You took that and ran with it, turning the working boy who is yerei shamayim into someone who is also "worldly" and goes to movies, sporting events, etc. I am seriously confused and sad about this.

Yes, this is nothing short of gaiiva. I agree with the amother you quoted. She said he works and is yerei shamayim and you decided he does xyz as well. These boys exist, but those with gaiiva think otherwise. And its people like you, with this mindset, that discourage these good guys from leaving yeshiva and getting a job - they are worried what the yentas will say about them.

amother

Aqua

Wed, Feb 19 2020, 11:54 am

Ok, how many very yeshivish working "boys" do you know that are completely out of the yeshiva framework. Who are not married yet, and who are still in their 20s? The type who would mesh well with a very sheltered, extremely frum girl. Im not talking frum or yarei shamayim, I'm talking haskafa and life style. I'm betting you won't know more than a very few.
(And btw, I think the concept of a working boy is one to be striven for. I think so many problems in our society is caused by the yeshiva system. Most, in fact. Poverty, entitlement, the shidduch crises, ppd, otd. I just didn't go into it because I'm not writing a thesis here. I'm just explaining the facts on the ground. Like it or not. But I don't believe in blaming these girls. It's not their fault and they shouldn't be mislabeled as arrogant when they are the victims of a messed up system.)

watergirl

Wed, Feb 19 2020, 12:11 pm

amother [ Aqua ] wrote:

Off the top of my head, 4 just in my daled amos/shul etc.

But - you are changing the rules. You lumped in all working guys into this category who you assume ALL do movies, sports games, etc. Now, you are saying to limit it to how many do I know who are in their 20s and unmarried.

You are making a gross (pun intended) generalization and throwing an entire segment under the bus. And we sit back and scratch our heads and wonder why there is a "shidduch crisis".

watergirl

Wed, Feb 19 2020, 12:16 pm

amother [ Aqua ] wrote:

Since I've had many close relatives affected by the shidduch crisis (female) and those affected by the dysfunction in the yeshiva world (male) your assumptions about me are totally off.

My assumption about you? What would that be?

I take real issue with the way you are disparaging an entire segment of frum guys.

watergirl

Wed, Feb 19 2020, 12:21 pm

amother [ Aqua ] wrote:

You edited your post after I replied already and added the bold.

Who is blaming the girls? There is gaiiva involved all around. People believing they deserve a specific model of a spouse. It's contrived, its false, and its what creates these issues in the first place that leave so many single for too long or force/extort parents into the supporting kollel thing that is what this entire thread is really about.

Last edited by watergirl on Wed, Feb 19 2020, 12:35 pm; edited 1 time in total

amother

Burlywood

Wed, Feb 19 2020, 12:29 pm

It is unfair to lump everyone in one category.People are a lot more nuanced than that and change over time. My husband who has always worked and was never in Kollel does not listen to any secular music or watch tv, except the occasional football game while I still listen to secular music only at work and try very hard to only watch tv or movies when I am on the elliptical. I think its hard for anyone to reject the only lifestyle they know unless they are strong enough to say it is not for them or unfortunately experience first hand fall out from that lifestyle, whatever that one may be. My brother in law is the same as my husband and he gives the daf yomi shiur in his community and lains every shabbos. My sister and I are both BY graduates who were not raised with Kollel and did not feel it was for us, but wanted ehrlich torah minded boys. We hope to raise our sons the same way. Do I wish my husband had more time to learn, more time off when it is Yom Tov to prepare and the like? Of course, but I am proud of him for bringing in honest parnassah for our family (as do I).