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My 6yo is lying
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amother
OP


 

Post Tue, Feb 25 2020, 6:47 am
It bothers me a lot. More than anything I can't take it when she lies it makes me doubt everything she says. She will lie about things even after I caught her lie and promise me she isn't lying.
An example: yesterday she came to me and I smelled a strong smell of sweet candy. I thought right away about the bear gummy vitamins she takes. So I asked her if she took any vitamins she says no. I ask her what did you take? Nothing. Did you just eat something? No. Did you touch something? No.
I knew she was lying from the way she laughed. I told her she can tell me now the truth and she won't get a punishment or I'll go look and see for myself. She starts promising me she didn't touch anything and didn't eat anything. But she also didn't want to tell me why her hands and face smell. I go to the medicine cabinet and I see that the sealed closed package of bear gums has been opened. So she confirms she only opened it to look. I see half a bear inside but she promises me she didn't eat the other half. She didn't even lick it.
At that point I got angry with her because it's so obvious she is lying and she still promises she is saying the truth. I told her a punishment she will get if she lies and nothing will happen if she tells the truth... anyway later when my dh comes home she comes out of bed crying for stupid reasons but I know she is crying because I was angry at her. And I realize I can count how many bears are in the bottle. She started crying like crazy that I shouldn't count the bears. I ask her if she wants to tell me what happened. No she doesn't want to say but she didn't take it. I see some are missing. She still says she doesn't know how. She cries some more and before going in bed confesses to me that she only licked it. I ask her about it and she confessed she ate from it too.
It scares me that she was able to lie and promise me she isn't lying when looking me in face.
Yesterday was a bit dramatic, but she was lying to me a lot lately. Also she is taking things that don't belong to her.

She takes stuff and than tells me she doesn't remember where she put it. In the hope that I'll forget about it and she can keep it

What should I do about this. How do I manage it the best possible?
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groovy1224




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Feb 25 2020, 7:02 am
Firstly, keep in mind that this is a normal, though upsetting, developmental stage for children.

For my own kids, I try to give them an 'out,' because most kids won't fess up even when they've obviously been caught. So if I ask my son if he brushed his teeth, and he says yes when there's clearly still chocolate cake on his teeth, I'll say are you sure? I think you might be forgetting. And he's more likely to say oh right I didn't, vs. if I ask something like 'is that the truth?' which will often just make him stick to his story.

See if you can find a book on Amazon or at the library to read to her about lying and why it's wrong, even when the truth is uncomfortable. Praise her when she does tell the truth (nothing over the top, just a simple 'thank you for being honest with me sweetie). Remember she isn't lying at this age to be manipulative or deceitful, it's just her immature way of trying to control her environment.
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amother
OP


 

Post Tue, Feb 25 2020, 7:51 am
Thanks for your response. So you think it's similar like a 3 or 4 yo lying?
Also any books you recommend?
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FranticFrummie




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Feb 25 2020, 8:15 am
So very normal, and so annoying!

Sometimes I pretend I believe it, if it's something silly. Sometimes I ask "Are you telling me a story?" and sometimes I will fact check "If I ask Morah Chani, what do you think she'll say?" and then follow up with a phone call. DD needed to see that I would seriously double check her stories.

What I did not do, was call it lying. Kids have crazy imaginations at that age, and probably believe at least half of what they are saying. Right now, I'm babysitting a 6yo girl who told me that she is allergic to the color orange. Um, OK. I can work with that. LOL

DD used to watch cartoons, and then ask me "Did that really happen?" so I knew that her sense of truth and fiction was still extremely blurry. Even knowing animation from real life actors was hard for her, nevermind real actors from IRL people.
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oneofakind




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Feb 25 2020, 9:00 am
Lying and stealing is often attempts to compensate for feeling deprived-either for objects or attention. Try giving her extra positive attention, unrelated to her behavior, and see if it helps.
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Learning




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Feb 25 2020, 9:11 am
amother [ OP ] wrote:
It bothers me a lot. More than anything I can't take it when she lies it makes me doubt everything she says. She will lie about things even after I caught her lie and promise me she isn't lying.
An example: yesterday she came to me and I smelled a strong smell of sweet candy. I thought right away about the bear gummy vitamins she takes. So I asked her if she took any vitamins she says no. I ask her what did you take? Nothing. Did you just eat something? No. Did you touch something? No.
I knew she was lying from the way she laughed. I told her she can tell me now the truth and she won't get a punishment or I'll go look and see for myself. She starts promising me she didn't touch anything and didn't eat anything. But she also didn't want to tell me why her hands and face smell. I go to the medicine cabinet and I see that the sealed closed package of bear gums has been opened. So she confirms she only opened it to look. I see half a bear inside but she promises me she didn't eat the other half. She didn't even lick it.
At that point I got angry with her because it's so obvious she is lying and she still promises she is saying the truth. I told her a punishment she will get if she lies and nothing will happen if she tells the truth... anyway later when my dh comes home she comes out of bed crying for stupid reasons but I know she is crying because I was angry at her. And I realize I can count how many bears are in the bottle. She started crying like crazy that I shouldn't count the bears. I ask her if she wants to tell me what happened. No she doesn't want to say but she didn't take it. I see some are missing. She still says she doesn't know how. She cries some more and before going in bed confesses to me that she only licked it. I ask her about it and she confessed she ate from it too.
It scares me that she was able to lie and promise me she isn't lying when looking me in face.
Yesterday was a bit dramatic, but she was lying to me a lot lately. Also she is taking things that don't belong to her.

She takes stuff and than tells me she doesn't remember where she put it. In the hope that I'll forget about it and she can keep it

What should I do about this. How do I manage it the best possible?

Btw if she took a lot of vitamins probably her stomach was hurting also. If the vitamins have iron it might be dangerous also. Don’t put these vitamins in Children’s hand reach. I also think she is no lying. It is a phase in a child’s development. If you say to her she is lying she will have a complex about it. Is it your first child?
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amother
Babyblue


 

Post Tue, Feb 25 2020, 9:13 am
Let her just be. So she took the gummy bears and she is denying it.

One of my girls always lied because she had anxiety. She was a perfectionist and couldnt bear being perceived in a bad way.
Try to see the bigger picture about your child. It gets petty when you focus on making her say what actually happened when she clearly cannot bear to.
If you cant do it yourself, use the help of a therapist.
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chayamiriam




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Feb 25 2020, 9:51 am
Why push her to lie more? Is she feeling deprived of candy? Just put the vitamins out of reach and tell her how sad it makes you when she is not telling the truth and how proud you are of her telling the truth even when that's hard to do. Praise her for telling the truth ignore silly behavior which will be out grown soon but bad feelings between you and her will remain long after her childhood.
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groovy1224




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Feb 25 2020, 10:08 am
amother [ OP ] wrote:
Thanks for your response. So you think it's similar like a 3 or 4 yo lying?
Also any books you recommend?


Something like this:
https://www.amazon.com/Berenst.....views

It's not a magic cure, it just opens a dialogue about how wanting to lie is normal, but why it's wrong to do so.
3-4 year olds lie differently, but I definitely think a 6 year old lying is different than a 12 year old lying.
When she does lie, try to think about why she felt the need to lie in that instance (was it to get extra candy, to avoid getting yelled at, push off bed time) and work with her on those things. Make sure she's not overly deprived of treats, that you aren't too too harsh with her, that she's getting enough attention etc.
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amother
OP


 

Post Tue, Feb 25 2020, 12:05 pm
She is my oldest and is mature for her age. If she would be younger I think I would understand it better and react like the advise given here. But I did think a 6yo has a better understanding of true and false, but It seems I'm wrong so thank you all a lot for explaining it to me. She never used to lie so I was worried about this new behaviour.
I was also worried about her having to much of the vitamin and it effecting her sleep, that's why I pushed to know the truth.
About her being deprived, I'm almost 100% sure it's not that, but a little positive attention can't hurt anyone.

Thanks this really helped me stay positive.
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#BestBubby




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Feb 25 2020, 12:21 pm
Read two stories to her: The Berenstain Bears and the Truth. (it is in libraries).

and The Boy who Cried Wolf.

Discuss how if a person lies, then even when they tell the truth no one will believe them.
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amother
Tan


 

Post Tue, Feb 25 2020, 12:57 pm
amother [ OP ] wrote:
Thanks for your response. So you think it's similar like a 3 or 4 yo lying?
Also any books you recommend?

Rebbetzin Spetner (certified child phsycologist and parenting expert) says until age 8 a child isn’t lying.
Their imagination is very very vivid and truth and what-they-would-love-truth-to-be constantly gets mixed up.
That’s why they can promise you they saw a REAL pink elephant. They’re not lying, they’re imagining. Until age 7-8, can’t believe them but they’re not lying.
After around age 7-8 they do know.
But even then if you catch them lying don’t pursue it because it causes them to lie more.
Just don’t reward it.
But never make them feel like liars because... it causes them to become liars!
She has a whole chapter about it.
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#BestBubby




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Feb 25 2020, 2:02 pm
I distinctly recall "psychology" telling parents not to make a big deal about little kids
lying as they cannot differentiate between Truth and Imagination until age 4.
NOW psychology is saying kids cannot differentiate between lying and imagination until
8! In a few years psychology will say kids cannot differentiate between lies and imagination until 12!

There is an AGENDA here. Today's secular culture is steeped in lies. Politicians lie.
News Media lies. Advertisements lie.

There is a secular belief that "the end justifies the means".
Psychology PROMOTES dishonesty when it encourages parents not to punish for lying.
(not to punish for ANYTHING).

It is obvious that OP's DD KNOWS she is lying.

This culture of lying is Anti-Torah. I read Gedolim who said their parents never punished
except for Chutzpah and LYING.

It is very important that children understand that Lying is a BIG AVEIRAH!

Please do not buy into the culture of dishonesty that secular culture - including psychology - promotes!
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FranticFrummie




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Feb 25 2020, 2:13 pm
DD also started stealing at this age. She and her friend would do it together, when they played at other friend's houses.

When I caught her, I made her go around to every single person she stole from, return the item, and apologize. I waited on the sidewalk while she went to the door. We talked about how mad she would be if someone took her favorite stuffed animal away, and then hid it from her so she'd never know where it went. Until then, I don't think she realized that other people value their stuff the same way she does.

It all goes to the development of Theory of Mind. She definitely outgrew it by 7 or 8 (and then just started whining incessantly for things that she wanted.) Each phase has it's challenges, that's for sure! I wouldn't say that things get better or worse, they just get different. a 12yo is different from a 14yo and a 16yo is different still.

Just when you think you've got this parenting thing figured out, BAM! Another phase comes along. Punch
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#BestBubby




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Feb 25 2020, 2:14 pm
I would also read DD stories about how careful Gedolim were with honesty. Also many such stories about ordinary yidden as well. Here is an example from last week's Yated:

A Government Official visited the Chofetz Chaim. The Chofetz Chaim's SIL asked:
"Do you remember this government official? He helped our yeshiva so much."

CC: I am sorry but I am old and don't remember. Thank you so much for your help.

SIL: Don't you remember? This man helped the yeshiva when we had X problem?

CC: I am sorry. I don't remember.

After official left

SIL: Would it have been so terrible to say you remember. The yeshiva really needs
the help of this government official.

CC: Better the yeshiva should close down, than I should utter a lie.
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amother
Tan


 

Post Tue, Feb 25 2020, 2:20 pm
#BestBubby wrote:
I distinctly recall "psychology" telling parents not to make a big deal about little kids
lying as they cannot differentiate between Truth and Imagination until age 4.
NOW psychology is saying kids cannot differentiate between lying and imagination until
8! In a few years psychology will say kids cannot differentiate between lies and imagination until 12!

There is an AGENDA here. Today's secular culture is steeped in lies. Politicians lie.
News Media lies. Advertisements lie.

There is a secular belief that "the end justifies the means".
Psychology PROMOTES dishonesty when it encourages parents not to punish for lying.
(not to punish for ANYTHING).

It is obvious that OP's DD KNOWS she is lying.

This culture of lying is Anti-Torah. I read Gedolim who said their parents never punished
except for Chutzpah and LYING.

It is very important that children understand that Lying is a BIG AVEIRAH!

Please do not buy into the culture of dishonesty that secular culture - including psychology - promotes!

I hear your point but all I can say is that Rebbetzin Spetner’s methodology has the endorsement of past and present Rabbanim including Rav Wolbe zatzal who she ran everything by.

Her agenda is to PREVENT raising liars, not to encourage lying.
Trust breads trust.

I have older kids already BH.
They don’t lie.
They just don’t lie.
It works.

You don’t want to win the battle but lose the war...
Im just her student so could be I’m not giving it over properly. She definitely doesn’t promote lying. She’s very into not rewarding any lie ever. (When you know 100 percent, not 99 that it’s a lie) It’s also part of it.
But sometimes you think someone is lying and they’re really not. And sometimes it’s imagination (when little).

I think my little ones do have an excited imagination , my three yr old’s teacher can have a baby three times in just two months. Each time I smile and say that’s so nice. It’s cute, one day she’ll grow out of it and then we’ll miss all those babies and all the real pink elephants.
But my big kids don’t lie. Ever, BH.
Maybe because they know I trust them.
That’s the physcology behind it.
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#BestBubby




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Feb 25 2020, 2:32 pm
amother [ Tan ] wrote:
I hear your point but all I can say is that Rebbetzin Spetners’s methodology has the endorsement of past and present Rabbanim including Rav Wolbe zatzal who she ran everything by.

Her agenda is to PREVENT raising liars, not to encourage lying.
Trust breads trust.

I have older kids already BH.
They don’t lie.
They just don’t lie.
It works.

You don’t want to win the battle but lose the war...
Im just her student so could be I’m not giving it over properly. She definitely doesn’t promote lying. She’s very into not rewarding any lie ever. (When you know 100 percent, not 99 that it’s a lie) It’s also part of it.
But sometimes you think someone is lying and they’re really not. And sometimes it’s imagination (when little).

I think my little ones do have an excited imagination , my three yr old’s teacher can have a baby three times in just two months. Each time I smile and say that’s so nice. It’s cute, one day she’ll grow out of it and then we’ll miss all those babies and all the real pink elephants.
But my big kids don’t lie. Ever, BH.
Maybe because they know I trust them.
That’s the physcology behind it.


I agree that labeling children liars will cause them to lie more.

I read a true story of an adult who lied as a child to his parents. The parents said
"I believe you. I know you would never lie to me". It is not clear if the parents knew he
was lying or if they really believed them. But hearing from his parents that he is a
Truth Teller has caused him to change and only tell the truth.
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Levv




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Feb 25 2020, 3:28 pm
Instead of accusing her or saying that she is lying or a liar, say something like, you can’t fool me. You know the rule, don’t ever take gummies without asking first. Take the focus off the lying and redirect her to what she should do Better in the future.
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amother
Navy


 

Post Tue, Feb 25 2020, 9:47 pm
My 6 year old went through a lying/stealing phase last year. She is a very good girl and I was completely shocked. It look me a little while to realize that she was taking things from me, her teachers, and her classmates.

In our case, I think she genuinely didn't realize what a big deal it is to take something that didn't belong to her. And the lying was to cover up her misdeeds, so she wouldn't get in trouble. We had some very serious discussions about how wrong it was, and how she would feel if someone would take her things. She had to return the stolen items to her teacher and her classmate.

BH, after I fully caught on to what she was up to and kept stressing how she's a good girl, and that I know she won't do something so wrong again - I really think she stopped. This was around a year ago and I've never had a suspicion that she's done it again.

If your daughter is generally well behaved, I agree that it's probably a stage due to her immaturity and lack of understanding. Don't let her get away with it, but stress the seriousness of her deeds and let her know that you expect better of such a good girl. If she knows that you're on to her, she'll likely be scared to continue. And hopefully she will outgrow it soon.
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amother
Jetblack


 

Post Wed, Feb 26 2020, 5:44 am
As a child I used to get scared of my mother b/c she got angry very quickly about anything and you never knew what it could be about. I would throw my sandwich in the bin eg and she would find it and I would say I PROMISE I PROMISE I DIDN'T. I knew very well I was lying but I was so scared of her finding out that I would try to get out of it.

I'm not saying that OP is this angry scary mother but it could be that you are a drop on top of her as it sounded from your post, that you had to count the bears and ask her and check etc.. You smelled something sweet. Ok why does it have to be an issue? There are enough things to tell a child off about when you can ignore just ignore unless it's something dangerous or needs to be said.
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