what you say in front of your children

Seraph

Thu, Dec 06 2007, 5:26 am

(if this needs to be moved to a private section, feel free.)

My husband and I were reading together a book on chinuch. One of the things stressed in the book is that you have to work on yourself to be mechanech yours kids.
The sefer talked about how you have to be very careful what you expose kids to, even from a verrry young age, because you don't know from what age they start to understand, and what they see/hear can have an effect on them.
The book specifically mentioned not to speak dibur gasa in front of them, which, roughly translated, is course language. Or, you could say, dirty talk.

So, my husband and I were wondering whats included in "dirty talk".
For example, flirtiness could be considered "dirty talk". Can you do that in front of a young child? I could understand not "talking dirty" in front of a 2 year old, per se.
My husband and I are specifically curious from what age this would apply. Because, up until a certain age, parents are allowed to be intimate with the child awake and in the room. (Does anyone know what age that is?) If you're allowed to be intimate in front of them at that age, I would think that speaking flirtatiously should also be allowed.

Whats your thought? Until what age, if any, is "dirty talk" not allowed in front of your child?

Or am I barking completely up the wrong tree here, because is dibur gasa just talking about things like swearing, etc, which a frum jew is never allowed to do, even in chadrei chadarim?

hila

Thu, Dec 06 2007, 5:52 am

Firstly never say anything or do anything in front of your kids that you dont want repeated or imitated.

I dont mean at 3 months, but once they are 8-10 months, and starting to imitate and understand and babble meaningful words, it is late!
(yes my kids said words at 10 months)

It depends what you want your kids to see of your relatrionship with dh.
If you dont mind them seeing you kissing or hugging then do it now.
(see other threads for this)

Relax and enjoy being a mother.

mimivan

Fri, Dec 07 2007, 12:01 am

I also heard someone should avoid discussing shalom bayis problems and financial problems in front of children (from a shiur)..

Also, my masphia said one should avoid arguing about chinuch in front of children. It is better to let a spouse do something not so ideal (within reason, of course...) with a kid once than having a big, tiresome "discussion" at the Shabbos table about what to do or not to do (unfortunately, learned this one from personal experience) with the kids. Better to bring it up later.

yoyosma

Fri, Dec 07 2007, 12:14 am

I dont understand what you mean by "dirty talk". What do you mean, you tell your husband your intimate intentions? I really dont know how else to phrase that, so I am sorry if I offend.
I dont know what you mean by flirting, but smiling at your husband, giving each other looks from across the room can just be a special intimate thing and just shows how much you care for each other. If anything a loving look between parents speaks volumes to a child about how his/her parents feel for each other and makes them feel safe and is probably more effective than active affection.

Atali

Fri, Dec 07 2007, 2:30 am

Quote:

Because, up until a certain age, parents are allowed to be intimate with the child awake and in the room.

Are you sure of that? I heard that it is never mutar when the kids are awake, only when they are sleeping, and that is up until the child can talk, but it is a midas chassidus not to have relations in front of any living being, even a fly (and all the more so a person)

Ruchel

Fri, Dec 07 2007, 7:05 am

Atali wrote:

Quote:

Because, up until a certain age, parents are allowed to be intimate with the child awake and in the room.

I heard it too, but yeah... I don't think most people are comfortable with it.

How did the chassidim do in the shtetl?

small bean

Fri, Dec 07 2007, 12:49 pm

my daughter is 10 months. the other day my hub snuggled up next me. now she copies him exactly. I was once vomiting and now she goes into the bathroom and makes vomiting noises. she copies everything we do, tries to imitate what we say....... we are starting to be very careful what we do around her.

louche

Fri, Dec 07 2007, 1:23 pm

Ruchel wrote:

How did the chassidim do in the shtetl?

Correct your assumption that only chassidim lived in shtetlach. There was a whole world of non-chassidim who lived in shtetlach, too. Some of them were even nonJews, LOL, whether or not they had the same sensitivities in these matters as Jews.

How they managed is in fact a mystery. they hung a curtain or blanket around their bed, tried to put the kids to sleep as early as possible,and tried to be as quiet as possible. Not much else you can do when you live in a one-room house, or even share one room with several families. My guess is that children grew up knowing or at least thinking they knew a lot more of the facts of life than kids do today.

In Japan, where traditional houses had paper walls, people learned to be very quiet, and to politely ignore what they heard coming from neighboring houses. in the shtetl they must have learned the same thing. Kids past a certain age can sense when they shouldn't ask about something.

mummiedearest

Sat, Dec 08 2007, 9:33 pm

about the paper walls thing...

anyone living in an apartment house can tell you it's very common to hear other people's... um... business. and in brooklyn, if you don't know the neighbors, the minhag hamakom seems to be to bang on the wall/ceiling/floor for any noise coming from the neighbor's apartments...

so it's not just japan. drywall is all around us...

amother

Mon, Dec 24 2007, 3:58 am

Okay, so I have a problem...this is kind of changing the subject from tznius to saying not nice things in front of children, but it is in the spirit of the thread.

My husband sometimes gets into terrible moods..unfortunately often at the Shabbos table. We often end up having arguments, because I tell him not to use such and such language in front of the kids (not cursing but insulting words) and that only makes him angrier.

I got some advice from a shalom bayis sefer that when dealing with a spouse's anger, it is best to say nothing and until they finish with their tantrum. Rebuking them for certain language etc...can only make them more upset. The Sefer suggested sitting as if with water in your mother and to let the person just talk it out. If the tantrums are not "fed" they will become less and less and finally disappear..

(this was from the book Dear Kallah and is based on the advice given in a traditional chassidic story)

now my question...If I let my husband vent, my kids are going to hear things they shouldn't...including me being insulted. But if they see no reaction...they will not witness something traumatic like a fight...and I am hoping that eventually the explosions will stop..

So do I risk allowing my kids to hear my husband's mishigoss if the result may be that they will hear no more fights at all? Or is it too big a risk to take?

(please don't suggest therapy for him, counseling, pills, a neurologist LOL

anything he's willing to do we've done already... this is my final strategy...I did try leaving the room, but that only made him shout the insults...I'm thinking this might just worki)

peach

Mon, Dec 24 2007, 1:55 pm

If, as you say, when you respond to him it just makes it worse and it doesn't stop anyways, your children are still hearing the language.

If you're concerned about your children not knowing that the language is not OK, then if you hear them using it, you can tell them its not Ok and if they say "Well Daddy/Abba/Tatty says that", you can say something like "We are all working on improving our language".

Another point: Being that responding to him doesn't help, think of what a wonderful lesson your children will learn in how to remain silent while being insulted. That's an invaluable lesson.

Hatzlacha!

amother

Mon, Dec 24 2007, 2:07 pm

peach wrote:

Another point: Being that responding to him doesn't help, think of what a wonderful lesson your children will learn in how to remain silent while being insulted. That's an invaluable lesson.

Too true. I learned so much just from watching the way my mother would respond (or not respond) and I only noticed how much this gave me after I got married.

amother

Mon, Dec 24 2007, 6:49 pm

amother wrote:

peach wrote:

Another point: Being that responding to him doesn't help, think of what a wonderful lesson your children will learn in how to remain silent while being insulted. That's an invaluable lesson.

Too true. I learned so much just from watching the way my mother would respond (or not respond) and I only noticed how much this gave me after I got married.

Peach and amother:

Thanks so much! I will keep this in mind...yes, I also think insults on "stick" in one's mind if they see a reaction...and we speak another language from our children...

amother

Mon, Dec 24 2007, 8:49 pm

maybe ure husband can go to therapy? its serious what kids see and hear!

Quote:

lol she sounbds adorable!