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Aylat

Mon, Mar 16 2020, 2:16 pm

Aylat wrote:

A few questions from the end of last week

Shabbat 8
Is the reed basket כוורת discussion specifically about throwing or also applies to carrying? If the first, is that why the needles are mentioned? Because big poles were also transferred between רשויות in מלאכת המשכן.

I see you answered this Naturalmom5! Going to read it now.

Aylat

Mon, Mar 16 2020, 2:21 pm

naturalmom5 wrote:

Shabbos 8

- תוספות ישנים, חתם סופר, תוצאות חיים -
[ ב [As we have mentioned, Rashi holds the reason for the pettur is
because in the Mishkan they only threw vessels and not
domains. On Rashi’s assertion, the Tosafos Yeshanim 6 questions that
this isn’t true. On the contrary, they were motzi domains in the
Mishkan. Both the Aron and the Mizbeiach had the shiur to be
considered domains, and we should learn from them that they were
motzi domains in the Mishkan.

The Chasam Sofer 7 comes to answer this question. He writes that
we can’t compare throwing to Hotza’ah. When Rashi asserted that
they only threw vessels in the Mishkan and not domains, he meant
this specifically concerning the action of throwing. Of course he knew
that with their hands they were motzi the Aron and Mizbeichos which
constitute domains. However, this was done through the action of
Hotza’ah with their hands, and we cannot learn out throwing from
Hotza’ah. Not only that, he writes this with a clear indication that he
is bothered by how the question was asked in the first place.
Now, the Sefer Totzaos Chaim 8 brings these words of the
Chasam Sofer, and writes that we can use them to answer for why
Abayei specifically discussed the act of throwing a beehive into a
public domain. In truth, he could have also brought the din with
regard to being motzi a beehive as throwing is merely an offshoot
of Hotza’ah. In fact, on the surface it would seem to make more
sense that he should have discussed the Av Melacha and not the
offshoot. However, with the Chasam Sofer’s explanation for Rashi’s
words this all makes sense. From his words we see the whole din of
the beehive applies specifically to throwing and not Hotza’ah. It was
specifically the action of throwing that was present in the Mishkan
with relation to objects and not domains. On the other hand, one
would be chayiv for being motzi a domain as such an action was
present in the Mishkan.

However, the Totzaos Chaim also answers for the reasoning of the
Tosafos Yeshanim. He asserts the Tosafos Yeshanim must have held
that because throwing is an offshoot of Hotza’ah as we see later on 9,
therefore it doesn’t make sense to differentiate between the two. As
such, if we say that one would be chayiv for being motzi a beehive
because such an action was present in the Mishkan, then it wouldn’t
stand to reason to give a different din for throwing. Being an offshoot
of Hotza’ah makes that it should always have the same din as the Av.

IF ANYONE IS STILL INTERESTED...

This is great, thanks! So proud when I have a question that is addressed by the מפרשים - ברוך שכיוונתי!
2 questions
1) How does Tosafot Yeshanim explain the Gemara that if it is over 6 amot diameter one is not liable?
2) Do you happen to know which way we pasken? Is there any הלכה למעשה difference between throwing and carrying?

ETA another 2 questions
3) Where does it say that throwing is תולדה of carrying?
4) Is Tosafot Yeshanim different from the Tosafot on the Vilna daf?

Aylat

Mon, Mar 16 2020, 2:31 pm

Shabbat 9 and 10

I find aggadata much easier and my mind doesn't wander when I am listening.

imorethanamother

Wed, Mar 18 2020, 2:53 am

A little change from all the other things going on in the world! The daf got wonderful, because I can't understand all this Hotza'ah.

It was a little disconcerting to read about how bad women are so very terrifying, when personally I think there are far, far, far more bad men in the world. There should be more warnings about all of them! And we're so vulnerable.

imorethanamother

Wed, Mar 18 2020, 3:35 am

ALSO, I admit that I grew up without an eiruv, and never ever did anyone ever discuss the difficulties in wearing a pad or a tampon on shabbos. Never!

I mean, it's possible someone said something in high school and I was absent that day, but I really don't think so. My mind is now blown.

Aylat

Wed, Mar 18 2020, 1:08 pm

imorethanamother wrote:

This is also where my mind jumped to. I'd love to read the תשובות about it, I'd guess they quote this Gemara. (הלכה למעשה as I understand it: permitted to wear to protect you from discomfort but not to protect your clothing from stains (ie if very light or occasional flow. Also relevant re moch which I learned you cannot go out with if no eiruv.)

I also grew up without an eiruv and we always reminded each other, "check your pockets!" before going out on Shabbat: חייב אדם למשמש בבגדו ערב שבת עם חשכה !

Aylat

Wed, Mar 18 2020, 1:14 pm

imorethanamother wrote:

A little change from all the other things going on in the world! The daf got wonderful, because I can't understand all this Hotza'ah.
.

When I get up and listen (or start listening) to my daf shiur first thing, instead of checking messages and the news, I feel so much better. חיי עולם instead of חיי שעה. As mentioned in דף י though different context. [I say first thing even before davening because I get up and nurse the baby and daven after (or a lot after depending on kids), but while I have to be sitting down is a great time to learn - say ברכות התורה first obviously - or waste my time on phone...]

I also find that I connect more to the aggadata. It sparks all these ideas and connections in my mind. I'd like one day to get more into the halachic debate- emphasis on 'one day' and not necessarily now.

Aylat

Wed, Mar 18 2020, 1:18 pm

Shabbat 12

The famous lice debate! A particular interest of mine. But side point: ההורג כינה כאילו הורג גמל - why camel out of all possible animals?? More relevant to say ram or תחש which is what they killed for מלאכת המשכן. And more common to shecht a kosher animal. And camels weren't pests that were killed (a possible reason for choosing an animal here as parallel to lice), they were valued assets. Anyone know מפרשים which address this or have any ideas?

naturalmom5

Wed, Mar 18 2020, 6:00 pm

Sorry Im behind

Shabbos 9

Issur to eat before performing Mitzvos

The source for the issur to eat before performing mitzvos
[ג [It is clear from our Mishna that we stop a seudah for Kriyas Shema,
but not for tefillah. This practically means that although there is an
issur to start a seudah close to Mincha, if one did so anyways we don’t
make him stop. On the other hand, concerning Kriyas Shema which is
d’oraisa, there we would stop a seudah for one to fulfill his chiyuv
min hatorah.

On the subject, the Shulchan Aruch 14 writes that it is assur to
begin eating within a half hour of the zman to recite the nighttime
Shema. Additionally, if one began to eat after the zman is reached, we
tell him to stop, recite Shema without its brachos, and only then finish
the seudah. Afterwards, he should repeat Shema a second time with
its brachos, and then proceed to daven Maariv. This whole procedure
is caused by what we mentioned that the chiyuv for Shema is d’oraisa
while tefillah is merely d’rabbanan. Therefore, we stop the seudah for
the chiyuv min hatorah, and only tell him to fulfill his chiyuv
d’rabbanan later.

We find something similar to this in Sukkah 15 where the Mishna
discusses one who was on the road and didn’t have a lulav to take.
The Mishna asserts that upon arriving home he should take the lulav
on his table. This practically means that he must stop even in middle
of eating to fulfill his mitzvah.

From the back and forth it actually becomes clear the Gemara
there was discussing the other days of Sukkos and not the first. Now,
we know that on the other days of Sukkos the mitzvah of lulav is only
m’drabbanan, and for rabbanan’s we say not to stop someone who
already started eating. However, the Gemara there was discussing a
situation where if the person would continue his seudah he wouldn’t
also have enough time to fulfill his mitzvah of taking the lulav. On the
other hand, if he would have had enough time to also perform the
mitzvah then of course we would have allowed him to continue the
seudah just like we find in our sugya concerning Mincha. At the same
time it is also clear from there what the din would be if such a thing
happened on the first day of Sukkos where the lulav is min hatorah.
In such a case the din would be to stop the seudah and fulfill the
mitzvah in all situations.

These Mishnaiyos are all sources for what we find many place in
the Shulchan Aruch that it is assur to eat before performing a mitzvah.
We will now go on to the specific cases.
If the issur achilah is specifically applicable when actually
sitting down to eat or is true even for tasting as well / Before
the nighttime Kriyas Shema / Before Bedikas Chametz /
Before Netilas Lulav / Before reading the Megillah / Before
Tekias Shofar

- מג"א, בית מאיר, משנה ברורה, דעת תורה, הליכות שלמה -
[ד [There is what to discuss concerning whether or not the issur to eat
before performing mitzvos applies even to tasting. On this subject,
it is clear from the Poskim that there are slight differences from one
mitzvah to the other. We will now bring a brief account of this.
The Nighttime Kriyas Shema. The Shulchan Aruch 16 writes that
it is assur for one to begin eating within a half hour of the zman for
the nighttime Kriyas Shema. Also, the Magen Avraham there 17 brings
the Tur who writes that it is assur for one to sit down for a seudah
during that time. This can be seen as well from the Mordechai,
Agudah, and Beis Yosef b’shem Tosafos. He continues by saying their
words imply that mere tasting would still be muttar. However, he does
bring the words of the Terumas Hadeshen 18 who implies even tasting
would be assur. The Terumas HaDeshen infers this from Brachos 19
where the Gemara states “A person shouldn’t say I’ll eat a little and
drink a little etc.” From those words it is clear the issur applies even
to a small act of eating.
However, the Mogen Avraham concludes that there is no need to
be stringent with mere tasting. Similarly, the Mishna Berurah 20 also
asserts that tasting is muttar. Tasting refers to eating fruits or a
k’beitzah of bread. 

Aylat

Thu, Mar 19 2020, 4:42 pm

Shabbat 13

Why is the assumption that the עם הארץ is going to negatively affect the פרוש rather than the other way round? It says יאכילנו, inplying that the עם הארץ is hosting the פרוש, but the original language of the Gemara was לא יאוכל עם, not specifying whose home the meal was taking place in.

The Gemara seems to use זבה and נידה interchangeably here; why?

The parallel between eating forbidden (or non-recommended) food and forbidden physical intercourse - doesn't seem valid. Surely the temptation for the second is much higher and therefore needs a stronger גדר?
Similarly the comparison of the 2 הרחקות - eating together and sleeping in the same bed (perhaps even unclothed).

Tosafot
והוא היה יודע בעצמו שלא יבא לידי הרהור שצדיק גמור היה
But on דף יב the example was cited of
ר' ישמעאל בן אלישע אני אקרא ולא אטה פעם א' קרא ובקש להטות אמר כמה גדולים דברי חכמים שהיו אומרים לא יקרא לאור הנר ר' נתן אומר קרא והטה
Sounds like it's not a good idea to rely on your own greatness and ignore the גדרים of Chazal. (This reminded me of Shlomo haMelech btw.)

ואלו מן ההלכות שאמרו בעליית חנניה בן חזקיה בן גרון שעלו לבקרו
How cool to be him and have the Mishna quote the halachot in your name because the Rabbanim were in your house when they decided them. Why his attic btw? Was this at the time of Roman persecution and they were hiding?

נמנו ורבו ב"ש על ב"ה וי"ח דברים גזרו בו ביום
Just because they were the majority on that particular occasion?
I am confused by the count of the 18 halachot, but possibly I will be answered tomorrow as it continues onto the next daf.

מחבבין את הצרות
The Gemara says צרות and Rashi keeps interpreting it as ניסים. Why?

אוכל ראשון...אוכל שני...משקין טמאים
Do liquids have degrees of טומאה like foods and if so which degree is meant here?

שנפלו על ראשו ורובו שלשה לוגין מים שאובין
I don't want to become טמא just because I showered!

הספר
Why does a ספר תנך have טומאה status? And since it's a שני, does handling it make one a שלישי?

Aylat

Thu, Mar 19 2020, 4:55 pm

More thoughts on Shabbat 12

Tefillin are holier than the ציץ! Getting soon for our soon-to-be bar mitzva boy beH!

משדכין את התינוקות
Doesn't say בנות or נערות. Did they really fix engagement contracts from the cradle?
However תינוק in the next line is obviously a young schoolboy - up to how old, 13? Or younger?
So I guess this implies that girls were engaged before 12, but not as babies. When did they get married?

אמר רבה ואפילו גבוה שתי קומות ואפי' שתי מרדעות ואפילו עשרה בתים זו על גב זו חד הוא דלא ליקרי
Why, if it's so high he can't even reach it?
אם אדם חשוב הוא מותר
Contrast here, where although he is used to his servants doing it for him, it's still technically possible for him to do it, so why is he allowed?

הלכה ואין מורין כן
Very interesting and I'd love to look up other examples of where this is used.

chicco

Thu, Mar 19 2020, 6:05 pm

imorethanamother wrote:

I learned in kallah classes that if you have to be out on the Friday night of doing a hefsek tahara, and there is no eruv, you can't go out with a moch, because that is not "necessary" as it is drabanan, and carrying is a diorysa.

Also I'm struggling to keep up with everyone home and not a moment to myself. I really miss it!

imorethanamother

Sun, Mar 22 2020, 1:56 am

So I struggled with yesterday’s daf. It’s so confusing! It explained that Rabbanim added 18 different ways to get tamei, and those 18 ways are so so strict that basically you spend your life tamei. You took a shower or a bath? Tamei. You didn’t wash your hands (every minute? Every hour? What’s the time frame here?!). Tamei. You drank something that was handled by someone who was tamei? Tamei. You are in niddah? Tamei. There was a bug? Tamei.
I mean, life must have been impossible.

amother

Pumpkin

Sun, Mar 22 2020, 7:46 am

imorethanamother wrote:

Hands are always considered tamei (shniyos) and need to be washed before eating, but they are considered separately from the rest of the body and have no effect on the tahara status of the person, as a whole. The concern was about a person possibly being metamei trumah through eating/drinking, so hands are washed before eating.

My husband keeps reminding me that there is no reason a person has to be tahor, except if he/she wants to go into the Mikdash or eat kodshim, but yes, it does seem like everyone (especially women) were mostly tamei. It still seems stressful to me and makes me glad not to be the daughter or wife of a kohein.

Aylat

Sun, Mar 22 2020, 8:49 am

imorethanamother wrote:

So I struggled with yesterday’s daf. It’s so confusing! It explained that Rabbanim added 18 different ways to get tamei,

This 'insert' of hilchot tumah into Masechet Shabbat really drives home what I've been thinking since the beginning of the masechta - you (generic you) can't understand anything until you've learned everything! I mean, I was expecting Seder Taharot to be difficult because I don't have practical experience of the halachot, but here they are in Shabbat. No wonder we say הדרן עלך and start again immediately after finishing Very Happy

Aylat

Sun, Mar 22 2020, 8:53 am

imorethanamother wrote:

This very much explains archaeological finds of mikvaot in private dwellings, especially in Yerushalayim, where tahara was most relevant (Beit Hamikdash and kodshim).

Aylat

Sun, Mar 22 2020, 8:56 am

Thinking more about what life must have been then with tumah/taharah in operation. You must have had to be super aware and mindful of everything you did and touched. Maybe (who am I to suggest a reason? but maybe) that was part of the aim. Halacha permeated every.single.movenent.

Aylat

Fri, Mar 27 2020, 6:36 am

Chodesh tov my chavrutot from afar! (A day late, like me and the daf currently.) May this be a month of miracles.

imorethanamother

Wed, Apr 01 2020, 2:56 am

Aylat wrote:

Chodesh tov my chavrutot from afar! (A day late, like me and the daf currently.) May this be a month of miracles.

So many questions. I was listening to Rabbi Lebowitz who went into the Chanukah candles and that women are supposed to light, but not a minor or a crazy person. So I had so many questions.

1) Why is it then that I don't light, but my husband and children light. Wrong chinuch, no?

2) He went into why some things women are supposed to do, even though they're a zman geramah, and basically it's only for things that are NOT deoraisah. However.

--- Matzah is deoraisah. And it's zman geramah.
---Korban pesach is deoraisah. And it's zman geramah.
--- Shofar (edited to add, apparently we don't have to hear SHOFAR?!)

Anyway. And Torah study isn't bound by time, and neither is shema when you really think about it. And neither is the succah. So I would like just like a hard and fast rule because it seems like the rule isn't static.

amother

Pumpkin

Wed, Apr 01 2020, 7:59 am

imorethanamother wrote:

1) This is one of the rare mitzvos d’rabbanan, where women have an equal chiyuv and can actually be motzi men. I grew up lighting (as do/did my daughters), but when I got married - I stopped, because I thought married women are always yotzei with their husbands as an application of “Ishto k’gufo.” It bothered me on several levels. If mehadrin min ha’mehadrin is every member of the household, am I not a member of the household? Why wouldn’t it add to the hiddur to have me light? Also, I like to do my own mitzvos, when possible, and I missed making the brachos and actively participating in this one. A couple of years ago, I heard/saw that no less than R’Chaim Kanievsky paskened that a married woman can light on her own. When asked “what about ishto k”gufo?” he answered, “she’s k’gufo if she wants to be k’gufo.” Fortunately, my husband has no objection to me lighting on my own, so I have resumed active participation in this mitzvah. Other reasons that I saw for women/girls not lighting include reasons of tznius (as they used to all light outdoors). This reason is still applied to women/girls today (especially in more chassidish communities).

2) In general - Women are exempt from all mitzvos aseh she’hazman gramah - unless there’s a strong reason to include them. For example- Women are included in the mitzvos aseh of Shabbos (but not of Yom Tov) because of “shamor v’zachor b’dibbur echad.” Whoever is included in the shamor (I.e. mitzvos lo sa’aseh)is included in the zachor (I.e. mitzvos aseh). Similarly, since women are included in the lo sa’aseh of abstaining/removing chametz, they are included in the aseh of eating matzah. Regarding korban Pesach - there are shitos that women are not mechuyav, and in addition (as was noted earlier) many (most?) women did not get to eat it, because women were frequently tamei. Women are not included in the mitzvah of shofar, but this is an example of a mitzvah that women (apparently) have accepted upon themselves, and all women make an effort to fulfill this mitzvah. (Still, we would not be able to be motzi men Sad

.)

Torah study isn’t time-bound, but women’s exemption is derived from v’limadtem osam es b’neichem, which is very narrowly translated as “sons” rather than “children.” And then, since girls are not included in those who have to be taught - women are not included in those who have to teach, and all who don’t have to teach, similarly don’t have to learn. . . Interestingly, women’s exemption from z’man gramahs is derived from the Proximity of the mitzvah of tefillin to that of v’limadtem osam es b’neichem. Since women are exempt from the mitzvah of limud Torah, they are similarly exempt from the mitzvah of tefillin - and since the mitzvah of tefillin is a zman gramah, they are similarly exempt from all zman gramahs, and so-on-and-so-forth, with a cascading effect . . .

Shema is a zman gramah - Think back to the first Mishna in Shas. . . Sukkah is a classic zman gramah - because it is only a mitzvah on Sukkos. . . (This whole topic is coming up soon in the Gemara.)

In fact, almost every active mitzvah which is related to a Yom Tov (or a Rosh Chodesh) or any other time in the Jewish calendar excludes women. (This is one of the things that makes me sad 😢.)

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