Anyone else tired of all the "mundane" kvetching?

amother

Slategray

Mon, Mar 30 2020, 8:49 am

amother [ Coral ] wrote:

I think some of you are missing OPs point. She is not saying that people's challenges don't allow them to kvetch in general. She is talking about this particular moment in time when we are witnessing a level of pain that NONE of us has ever witnessed in our lives, on a national and international level.
We are not talking about individual tzaros, as painful as they may be. Yes, in a normal time, we don't judge others by minimizing their pain because my pain is worse.
We are talking about a uniquely horrific time in modern history where hundreds and thousands of people are dropping like flies, chevra kadisha needing to pile bodies in a van because they have so many, funeral homes making tens of levayos in a day, hundreds of people sitting shiva alone, hospitals building temporary facilities to accommodate the overflow, new mothers hours of childbirth, being sent out for lack of space...all this not to mention the disastrous impact on people's finances. Thousands of people are suddenly being thrown into poverty. People over the world are petrified and there is no end in sight!
Of course, many of us have it relatively good. Most people will be fine with the virus and be only minorly inconvenienced. But in general, this is an עת צרה היא ליעקב as well as the rest of the nations, and it's important to keep this in perspective when kvetching about not being able to go to the park or whatnot.
I think all of you completely misconstrued OPs message.

No one missed OP's point. From the way both of you put it, you would think no one in the world had ever died before. First of all there have been 35,000 deaths world wide, so I think saying that hundreds of thousands of people are dropping like flies is a little alarmist. Second of all, not every lives in NY. If you live in North Dakota, it probably doesnt seem like much of a big deal to you. Third of all, people die all the time every day. That doesn't stop people from complaining. If you want to talk about it on a national scale, whole nations suffer in poverty and oppression constantly. Just look at North Korea. Saying that people who complain about mundane things don't have a right to complain not all hardships are hard is insensitive and absurd.

southernbubby

Mon, Mar 30 2020, 9:13 am

I don't think that we can pretend that large families stuffed up indefinitely in small apartments is a minor issue or that not being able to obtain the supplies necessary for proper sanitation and hygiene is no big deal. Maybe the OP could have worded it more sensitively because naturally people are in pain from ruined plans and being denied something that they looked forward to.
OTOH, we have a new normal and it changes every day. When I see ads for example, cosmetics, but I see that people are being told that if they leave the house, they are safer wearing a mask, nobody will see their new lipstick so the ad seems ridiculously out of place.
Now I realize that when the publication went to print, things had not become this critical and a week ago, it was a totally reasonable concern, not to mention that these products can still bring joy and happiness when worn at home.
Maybe the OP does not mean that minor issues should not bother someone but that these complaints need to be weighed against the gratitude that we need to express to the Aibishter for all the good that we still have.

I also think that everyone needs to realize that there are haves and have nots in this situation and that we have to do all we can for those who have less. We cannot belittle their plight.

amother

Mon, Mar 30 2020, 9:44 am

Southernbubby and coral got it.

As Southernbubby said - the backyard wedding sympathy was so last week. Today it's all about sirens and tehillim and deaths.
Thank you for expressing it better than me.

They both expressed it better than me. Coral too..
Last week and 2 weeks ago the tiny apartment kvetches and house is a wreck with kids home all day were the kvetch of the time.
I was all for it. And happily kvetched about mundane stuff like that with the rest of them

But now times have changed. Now there are so many people dying. So many people sitting shiva. Do you not hear the sirens racing past all day?! I feel.like I live in a war zone.

People - the kvetches and attitudes need to change too! At this point in time nobody cares about your tiny apartment. Now is when we need to show gratitude for our blessings..anyone who is not affected by the "war zone" we live in and is still happily kvetching about their houses being too small and too messy simply don't get it.
Take a moment to pause.

And if you live in south dakota where there are no sirens and no deaths then yeah I guess I can see why your still kvetching about the parks being shut down.. I was more referring to NY area people..

kvetch away people.

mommy3b2c

Mon, Mar 30 2020, 10:03 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

The point everyone is trying to make that you still don’t seem to get is that no one is interested in your preaching. Everyone is scared. Everyone is anxious. Everyone’s life has been turned upside down to various degrees. It’s not your job to tell them how to cope.

southernbubby

Mon, Mar 30 2020, 10:42 am

ora_43 wrote:

I hear you, OP, but you're talking about adjusting very quickly. Maybe that's the ideal - the sooner we understand and accept the situation, the better, etc.

But not everyone is on that level. And if someone is still thinking about last Wednesday's issues, it's not necessarily that they aren't reading the news or don't realize that death is worse than a temporary lack of chocolate pudding. They just need a little longer to get through the whole emotional process of accepting things that just three weeks ago we all would have seen as a huge hardship.

This is the crux of the issue; the suddenness, the uncertainty, the insecurities. A few short weeks ago, we couldn't imagine it happening here. Purim was business as usual and everyone was looking forward to simchas and Pesach.
Now when we scrounge through the back of cupboards to finish up what we hid there long ago because it is perilous to shop, we have to keep reminding ourselves that at least we have something. We wake up to this new reality after whatever sleep we can manage.

But yes, people are taking time to adjust and some people are dangerously in denial.
I believe that OP certainly meant well and is trying to help others speed up the process. We are still reading about dumb clucks who endanger their own lives and the lives of others because they ran out of chocolate pudding and had to run to the store for that.

We obviously hope that we can get these reckless people to see the light because a month ago it was perfectly fine to run into a grocery store for one frivolous item.

amother

Jetblack

Mon, Mar 30 2020, 10:55 am

I agree with op's message even if it could have been delivered in a less harsh way.
If you are relatively untouched by the horror, now is a time to count your blessings, focusing on the negative and complaining bitterly is ungrateful when people are dealing with heart wrenching life changes.
This past shabbos, I was reading Mishpacha magazine and yes, the accounts there of how people were coping seemed almost naive because the situation had worsened so much by then. So someone "only" had 100 guests with dancing on their front lawn?! Could they have imagined that a few days later, weddings would be a minyan only, everyone 6 feet apart? No dancing, not even a question. And that a few days after that, no weddings at all (I know that's the current situation in Israel).
Not that things aren't hard, but if you BH haven't been touched by the true horror, be thankful that you have been spared and pray that it stays that way.

amother

Coral

Mon, Mar 30 2020, 11:16 am

amother [ Slategray ] wrote:

(Firstly, read my post again. I didnt say hundreds of thousands. I said hundreds and thousands. It's actually many thousands. )

Im sorry but I still think you ladies are missing OPs point. You are so turned off by her tone that you aren't hearing the message. Which is fine. (I tell that to my kids all the time- I can't hear what they are saying if they don't say it in the proper tone.)

So maybe we can restate it in a different way, without judgement, without bashing. Let me put it this way. Here's my personal evolution...

I somehow got signed onto 4 different tehillim chats. These are the types of chats that are ongoing, where whenever you have a free moment, you say a perek, and you post the number perek you are saying. People also post tehillim names of those struck with coronavirus.
Now, I am not a tehillim person. I barely daven. (I have little kids and just fell out of the habit.) For the first week, I did not say a single perek. I saw the constant messages, but I studiously ignored them all while I went about checking people's whatsapp statuses, emails, imamother, the news, etc.
It was a kind of cognitive dissonance.

The tehillim zuggers went on 24 hours a day. It went from posting a name here and there to people posting much more frequently. The list of cholim grew and grew.

Finally, somehow, I got myself to say some tehillim, and suddenly I felt a major shift. Here I was "wasting" my time with whatsapp jokes and following every bit of news, and just in general being busy with my own world.

Meanwhile there were people literally dying. Every few minutes, another name, people being intubated, young people on respirators, a young father, a pregnant mother. At unprecedented rates. The doctirs and nurses cant keep up. The chevra kadisha can't keep up.

And then you had selfless people with famies just as large or larger than mine, stuck at home just as I am, grabbing moments to say tehillim. THAT'S when it hit me.

We are in UNPRECEDENTED times for our generation. You cannot take OPs words out of the context in which it was said. If she said this last month, I would have agreed with you all.

But PLEASE realize that this is not NORMAL times where you, as an individual may be going through a personal challange. We are ALL seeing things we have never seen.

This morning I woke up at 6 to have a quiet hour to say tehillim. (VERY much not my type of thing to do). I was amazed to see how many other women were also up and saying tehillim. This is what makes me realize that we are not in usual times. And this is what shows me the difference of being nosei b'ol im chaveiro, as opposed to being in my own little world, focused on my own little kvetches.

So please, try to plug in to the very real tzara that humanity and the jewish nation are experiencing now, and perhaps it will help you be more grateful for what you have, kvetch less about what you dont, and maybe even pick up a tehillim to daven for the cholim.
(No bashing intednded)

thriver

Mon, Mar 30 2020, 11:24 am

When I was in treatment for stage three breast cancer at the age of 29 with four young children at home, I had the chutzpah to be frustrated with my doctor for keeping me waiting for over an hour. I had already endured multiple chemo treatments, a mastectomy, and I was in middle of radiation treatments. I had come to the hospital for my morning radiation treatment and I had been waiting for over an hour for my doctor to see me.

I guess my frustration was obvious to the nurse because she gave me a whole mussar shpiel about how my doctor gives every patient her time (which she does and she is a wonderful doctor and human being) and there are patients that are much sicker than me so how can I complain...?!

I burst into tears and ran out of that room so fast. Yes. She was right. There are people who have it worse and I am not taking it away from them but that did not take away from my very real challenges and pain.

Yes I was and I am so grateful that I did not have stage four cancer. But that did not take away from my very real pain and difficulties.

How dare she and how dare you...

The real chesed is to validate everyone where they are at. All of our challenges are real. Someone may have it worse but that does not take away from our very real individual challenges.

You as an individual should try and be sensitive to others before kvetching, but if someone kvetches to you, the pain is real. Be a mentsch and allow them to kvetch.

PinkFridge

Mon, Mar 30 2020, 11:45 am

forgive me for not doing more than skimming the first page before replying.
I'm listening to an interview with grief expert David Kessler, who lost a child. He says, there is a lot of grieving to be done for the loss of life as usual and you have to respect another person's pain.

OTOH, we do need perspective. It can come from thinking of relatives in the camps or bunkers, or just from counting our own blessings. About perspective: in Modim D'Rabbanan, we thank Hashem for enabling us to thank Him. We need help with that too. So daven to Hashem for perspective, and make your own hishtadlus in counting your blessings.

And for anyone who finds other people's kvetching a trigger, avoid it now. When you feel ready, try to be dlkz and compassionate.

mommy3b2c

Mon, Mar 30 2020, 11:45 am

amother [ Coral ] wrote:

We all know the message. Focus on the positive,
Be grateful for what we have. We aren’t interested in someone preaching that message to us in accusatory tones. I keep counting my blessings. I keep telling my children how we are the lucky ones. So many people have it so much worse. And then on Shabbos I had an anxiety attack and cried for hours. And on Sunday I was back to my usual cheerful self. And I’m not a complainer in general,
And I’m doing the best I can. Just like everybody else. Stop preaching and work on yourself.

amother

Bisque

Mon, Mar 30 2020, 12:44 pm

amother [ Mauve ] wrote:

OP, just because you acknowledge your own hypocrisy doesn't mean it's justified. You're a freaking kvetcher, and I can't stand listening to you. The problems that you kvetch about people kvetching about is real. Your issue with them isn't.

What is it about Coronavirus that brings out the worst in people?
The post I quoted is only one of many that it literally hurt to read.
I see lots of people here didn’t like the content and tone (some found either one or the other more upsetting) of OP’s post. Okay. You posted long beautifully written posts about why OP is wrong, why you disagree with her, how you think we should all think, behave, speak , react to this crisis. Still okay. Mussar well taken, I read your posts. Not speaking for OP but I take back anything I wrote earlier about keeping things in perspective. That was yesterday morning (I’m back on page 1) and I see amothers are not happy with that message. So far we’re still okay.
Here’s what’s not okay. The language in attacks on OP that I read today are horrible. I understand everyone is upset about a lot of things right now. Imamother can be a good place to vent and let off some steam. It’s not a good place to let people have it. You may be typing on an inanimate keyboard but don’t forget there’s a human being reading what you wrote.

southernbubby

Mon, Mar 30 2020, 1:05 pm

thriver wrote:

I guess that because there are lonely people on here who face a lonely Seder and they see people complaining about their kids, it's kinda like the nauseous pregnant women who complain to their infertile friends about morning sickness.

The kvetching can cause pain to other people but it's all valid.

cbsp

Mon, Mar 30 2020, 1:29 pm

thriver wrote:

You reminded me of this essay. As she states, her husband was battling cancer at the time.

http://www.jewishworldreview.c......php3

Not cancer, still a big fat pain
By Celia Rivenbark