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-> Chinuch, Education & Schooling
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amother
OP
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 Tue, Mar 31 2020, 8:17 pm
I'm confused.
I saw 2 threads today: One OP said her 4-year old is afraid of Pharaoh and the other OP said her 4-year old is afraid of Vashti.
Are teachers that graphic about the Purim and Pesach story that this has become such an issue with preschoolers?
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amother
Sienna
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Tue, Mar 31 2020, 8:19 pm
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It's a very common age for kids to have nightmares, especially the kids who tend towards anxiety in general. My kids get nightmares from Disney movies, so no, I don't think the teachers are doing anything wrong. It's really a minority of kids who are affected.
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amother
Goldenrod
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Tue, Mar 31 2020, 8:21 pm
Oddly, I got nightmares from Disney movies, but not from the Purim or Pesach stories.
Maybe it's how they're told?
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Simple1
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Tue, Mar 31 2020, 8:37 pm
Some kids are more sensitive and prone to anxiety than others. When I was in second grade, after learning about the mabul in Parshas Noach, I became absolutely terrified every time it rained. She was an excellent teacher, but somehow, I ended up taking it too much to heart.
I also felt very disturbed and creeped out from reading Charlie and the Chocolate Factory.
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mommy3b2c
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Tue, Mar 31 2020, 8:48 pm
| Simple1 wrote: | Some kids are more sensitive and prone to anxiety than others. When I was in second grade, after learning about the mabul in Parshas Noach, I became absolutely terrified every time it rained. She was an excellent teacher, but somehow, I ended up taking it too much to heart.
I also felt very disturbed and creeped out from reading Charlie and the Chocolate Factory. |
All of roald dahls stories make me feel creeped out. That’s his intention.
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groisamomma
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Tue, Mar 31 2020, 8:58 pm
Yup. Those nasty Morahs. We'd better rewrite the Torah, quick. 2020 style. Poof! No more Vashti and Paraoh. (Or is a trans version of them more palatable to today's kids?)
*sarcasm intended
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amother
Gold
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Tue, Mar 31 2020, 9:18 pm
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No need to mock. If you think about it, Paroah killing all the Jewish babies and forcing us to be slaves is scary if you don’t really understand that it happened a long time ago.
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smss
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Tue, Mar 31 2020, 9:27 pm
| groisamomma wrote: | Yup. Those nasty Morahs. We'd better rewrite the Torah, quick. 2020 style. Poof! No more Vashti and Paraoh. (Or is a trans version of them more palatable to today's kids?)
*sarcasm intended |
Just because it's in the Torah doesn't mean it should be taught to 4 year olds...
I think Morahs do have to use their discretion.
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amother
Chartreuse
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Tue, Mar 31 2020, 9:39 pm
I teach 3-4 year olds
I have one student this year that suffers from anxiety and she panicked throughout all those stories... thing is I downplay the scariness as much as possible but this student is extremely smart and new all the stories in detail already so she was nervous even before I got to any questionable parts... by the end of my lessons she was always calmer...
I never use the word kill or die in my lessons
Achashverosh said “make vashti go away”
Haman wanted to make a booboo on the yidden- but Hashem takes care of us so we didn’t get a booboo!
Achashverosh put haman on a tree and now he couldn’t make a booboo on the yidden!
Makas dever the farm animals got sick
Makas bechoros the biggest boy in the mitzri family had a booboo
I try my best...
How much do you want us to leave out of the story ?
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seeker
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Tue, Mar 31 2020, 9:48 pm
| amother [ Gold ] wrote: | | No need to mock. If you think about it, Paroah killing all the Jewish babies and forcing us to be slaves is scary if you don’t really understand that it happened a long time ago. |
Even a long time ago it's scary! I think we numb ourselves to it especially if we've been hearing about it repetitively since childhood.
Yes I do believe in mildly sugarcoating these things for kids. On the other hand there are kids who would be sensitive enough that even the basics would send their imagination rolling.
I was terrified from Disney movies but that's very intensely audiovisual. Biblical stories were always just verbal with some pictures that were drawn and not so realistic.
I think to me when I was younger and things were scary I had more of a morbid fascination, but then when I became a mother suddenly everything is more real. You hear about babies being drowned in the river and suddenly the image in your head is not baby Moshe in a basket but mothers having their nursing babies snatched out of their arms - and those mothers are not the invincible unflappable ones of my childhood, they're me.
Anyway this is why chinuch is a very delicate art. I really don't know how to handle this part. My kids are on the sensitive side and I don't know how much to give them.
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amother
Mint
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Tue, Mar 31 2020, 9:49 pm
| amother [ Chartreuse ] wrote: | I teach 3-4 year olds
I have one student this year that suffers from anxiety and she panicked throughout all those stories... thing is I downplay the scariness as much as possible but this student is extremely smart and new all the stories in detail already so she was nervous even before I got to any questionable parts... by the end of my lessons she was always calmer...
I never use the word kill or die in my lessons
Achashverosh said “make vashti go away”
Haman wanted to make a booboo on the yidden- but Hashem takes care of us so we didn’t get a booboo!
Achashverosh put haman on a tree and now he couldn’t make a booboo on the yidden!
Makas dever the farm animals got sick
Makas bechoros the biggest boy in the mitzri family had a booboo
I try my best...
How much do you want us to leave out of the story ? |
My daughter's Morah is like this. Eisav poked animals, Haman was put on a tree, Vashti was replaced as queen.
My in laws keep asking if I send to a super liberal school and I don't think it's necessarily the school but I appreciate this Morah.
Teachers describing putting kids in walls in Egypt to fill brick quotas is definitely nightmare inducing. It doesn't matter if it was a long time ago, these were still real parents and real kids. History IS scary.
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groisamomma
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Tue, Mar 31 2020, 10:31 pm
| amother [ Chartreuse ] wrote: | I teach 3-4 year olds
I have one student this year that suffers from anxiety and she panicked throughout all those stories... thing is I downplay the scariness as much as possible but this student is extremely smart and new all the stories in detail already so she was nervous even before I got to any questionable parts... by the end of my lessons she was always calmer...
I never use the word kill or die in my lessons
Achashverosh said “make vashti go away”
Haman wanted to make a booboo on the yidden- but Hashem takes care of us so we didn’t get a booboo!
Achashverosh put haman on a tree and now he couldn’t make a booboo on the yidden!
Makas dever the farm animals got sick
Makas bechoros the biggest boy in the mitzri family had a booboo
I try my best...
How much do you want us to leave out of the story ? |
A lot of what you're teaching is inaccuracies. Okay for 2 year olds. Not okay for preschoolers. I would be very, very upset if my children's morah would make up the story as she went along.
There are ways to teach without replacing the facts. Leave out the entire story if you want, but don't make things up.
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amother
Magenta
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Tue, Mar 31 2020, 10:38 pm
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I agree, not a good idea to change details. Leave out the harsher stuff, like the bricks in the walls. By the way, I don't think any kid ever got traumatized by the Shmuel Kunda book Boruch Learns About Pesach. And it is accurate without being gory.
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amother
Chartreuse
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Wed, Apr 01 2020, 12:03 am
| groisamomma wrote: | A lot of what you're teaching is inaccuracies. Okay for 2 year olds. Not okay for preschoolers. I would be very, very upset if my children's morah would make up the story as she went along.
There are ways to teach without replacing the facts. Leave out the entire story if you want, but don't make things up. |
What exactly was made up here? I used a softer language to describe what happened .
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amother
Cerise
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Wed, Apr 01 2020, 1:05 am
| amother [ OP ] wrote: | I'm confused.
I saw 2 threads today: One OP said her 4-year old is afraid of Pharaoh and the other OP said her 4-year old is afraid of Vashti.
Are teachers that graphic about the Purim and Pesach story that this has become such an issue with preschoolers? |
I'm the OP who's daughter is having nightmares from vashti... She goes to a very good and proffessional preschool and her teachers said they found it a cause for concern and that they haven't seen a kid react so extremely before..they wanted me to look into play therapy or sthing for anxiety but now with us all locked down and no school that's not happening...all I'm saying is its not regular and not a reflection on the teacher really because the other kids were fine, they could handle it.
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FranticFrummie
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Wed, Apr 01 2020, 1:12 am
When DD was 5 she started kindergarten, and came home with really scary, graphic stories.
It almost seems like they were being told for shock value, and the midrashim that came with the parsha were equally intense and "unfiltered".
This was all in the name of "keeping the kids interested and engaged." My very sensitive DD had nightmares, and in the day she kept obsessing over all the horrible parts of the stories.
At that age, why can't you just teach the parts of the Torah that are age appropriate?
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amother
Goldenrod
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Wed, Apr 01 2020, 1:27 am
I will say that I do NOT understand the fixation on the makos in preschool. The Torah sort of glosses over them, with most of the pesukim explaining the warnings given, begging for the makah to end, etc. The point is that Hashem is giving Paraoh and the Mitzriyim ANOTHER warning, ANOTHER threat, and they STILL don't let the Yidden go.
For some reason, the midrashim on the makos are the best-known ones in the entire Torah... I understand that it's "fun" and "colorful" and "frogs!" but it misses the point in many ways.
If you focus on the story as the LESSONS it's supposed to teach us, then the scary or graphic details become less important.
For example, let's compare these two versions:
1) There was a mean and nasty King Paraoh in Mitzrayim. He saw that the Jews had big families and didn't want them to become a big nation. So he tricked the Jews and made them slaves. He tortured the Jews and forced them to work harder and harder. The Mitzriyim would make a Jew stand holding a burning oil candle on their head, all night, instead of putting it into a candleholder! They would make them do jobs that were much too hard for them! But there were STILL too many Jews. So Paraoh got even meaner. He threw their babies into the Yam Suf to kill them all. Then Hashem told Moshe to tell Paraoh to let the Jews go. So there were ten plagues: First the water all turned to blood, and even their juice turned into blood! And if they tried to drink from the cup of a Jew it was ALSO blood! And when they squeezed an orange, blood came out instead of juice! ...etc.
2) Just like Hashem told Avraham Avinu, the Jews became slaves in Mitzrayim. The king at that time, Paraoh, tricked the Jews into helping build cities, and then forced them to stay his slaves! Only one of the Shevatim didn't go help Paraoh: Shevet Levi! They knew that learning Torah was the most important thing! So the whole Shevet Levi weren't slaves at all! We see how Torah helps us stay safe! For the rest of the Yidden, it was very hard for them in Mitzrayim. They cried out to Hashem to help them and save them! Hashem listened to them. Even though they were supposed to be slaves for MUCH longer, Hashem stopped it early! We see how important it is to ask Hashem for help when we need it! Moshe was sent to tell Paraoh to let the Jewish people go. But Paraoh didn't want to listen to Hashem! He said, "I don't believe in Hashem!" So Hashem sent him the first makah to show him that HASHEM is in charge. The water in Mitzrayim turned into blood! If you saw water turn into blood when Moshe said so, would you believe Moshe? Of course! But Paraoh was stubborn! He said, "I can also make water turn into blood! I still don't believe in Hashem and I don't want to listen to him!" ...etc.
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dragoneye126
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Wed, Apr 01 2020, 8:31 am
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I posted about my dd in the Paraoh thread. I don't think that teachers are traumatizing most 4 year olds, but I do think that schools could be more sensitive about different learning styles and needs for their students. The school psychologist I spoke to about this said that it's not uncommon- one kid out of every year or two has a strong reaction to the scary parts of our history. But the school doesn't change how it approaches these topics, even though by the time they get to Purim or Pesach the teachers have already identified if the class has a more sensitive student. I've learned that I need to be more involved about the kodesh curriculum. I don't have to worry about it this year, but when dd goes back to school IYH, I plan to warn her teachers about this issue, and I'll keep her home for the Purim and Pesach plays.
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amother
Tangerine
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Wed, Apr 01 2020, 8:49 am
I am from the former FSU, and my children's books had a lot of violent stuff and deaths in them. I think it's a cultural thing, how much to expose kids to.
I tried to read Rikki Tikki Tavi, which I adored as a child, to my oldest child at age 4 1/2. As soon as the cobra Nagaina ate the baby bird, my child freaked out and cried and didn't want me to read anymore. And my second one is even more easily upset by danger or death in stories. I have adjusted what I share with them.
But my kids don't seem to be bothered by the Chumash and Purim stories at school. Maybe their morahs are better at presenting scary material than I am.
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amother
Violet
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Wed, Apr 01 2020, 8:56 am
| amother [ Chartreuse ] wrote: | I teach 3-4 year olds
I have one student this year that suffers from anxiety and she panicked throughout all those stories... thing is I downplay the scariness as much as possible but this student is extremely smart and new all the stories in detail already so she was nervous even before I got to any questionable parts... by the end of my lessons she was always calmer...
I never use the word kill or die in my lessons
Achashverosh said “make vashti go away”
Haman wanted to make a booboo on the yidden- but Hashem takes care of us so we didn’t get a booboo!
Achashverosh put haman on a tree and now he couldn’t make a booboo on the yidden!
Makas dever the farm animals got sick
Makas bechoros the biggest boy in the mitzri family had a booboo
I try my best...
How much do you want us to leave out of the story ? |
I teach 2 year olds. Here's what I sound like -"And Vashti wasn't allowed in the palace anymore...bye bye Vashti..." (As I put the puppet down lol).
Never thought of the booboo idea. Thanks!
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