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This is what we were afraid of
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Elfrida




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Apr 01 2020, 7:46 pm
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Last edited by Elfrida on Wed, Apr 01 2020, 7:54 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Elfrida




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Apr 01 2020, 7:53 pm
lilies wrote:
What about the mandatory DNR being applied to all Covid-19 patients?


The average survival to discharge rate of in hospital resuscitation is only about 10-15%. If the staff are overwhelmed an intervention that requires a lot of personnel concentrated in one place and has a relatively low success rate is probably not the most efficient use of resources, however inhumane it sounds. Not to mention that it sprays virus particles everywhere.

It's not policy yet, and even if it was I can see medical staff having a very hard time keeping it, but I can follow the logic involved.
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amother
Yellow


 

Post Wed, Apr 01 2020, 8:19 pm
Gov Murphy (NJ) just authorized all kinds of things, like health care workers with foreign degrees who were not yet licensed in US, PAs & APNs to work not under a doctor, no liability for them etc.
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Elfrida




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Apr 01 2020, 8:39 pm
Is that good or bad? You seem to be worried that they are exceeding their responsibilities, but further up the thread was a discussion on the desperate need for medical personnel. I think most of them will be aware of their limits and consult senior staff when they are unsure how to proceed. Anyone, with any training, is aware that they are dealing with human life, and you can't just glue it together if it gets broken.
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Miri1




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Apr 01 2020, 11:21 pm
There needs to be a simple blood test for antibodies.
So that anyone who has them can assist both those who are sick and those who are healthy.

I don't know the technicalities of the use of PPE's but I imagine there will be less stringency for those who have tested with the antibodies.
And it sounds like people are expected to remain immune for at least a few months.
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asmileaday




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Apr 01 2020, 11:55 pm
Miri1 wrote:
There needs to be a simple blood test for antibodies.
So that anyone who has them can assist both those who are sick and those who are healthy.

I don't know the technicalities of the use of PPE's but I imagine there will be less stringency for those who have tested with the antibodies.
And it sounds like people are expected to remain immune for at least a few months.


I believe the world agrees with you. They're working on it. These things don't happen quickly.
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aliavi




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Apr 01 2020, 11:55 pm
ila wrote:
What aboud cameras? Would that be possible?


The hospitals and doctors don’t want that due to liability issues and privacy concerns.
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Mama Bear




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Apr 02 2020, 12:41 am
it's the unfortunate reality that a lot of Covid patients have died from neglect, and not the disease itself per se.
It's the unforunate reality that the hospitals are overwhelmed, which is why the above happened.
it's a terrible situation and I wish something could be done about it. It doesnt even make sense. Doesnt New York WANT fewer casualties?
I really wish there was a solution bc it's so scary.
People are afraid to go to the hospital. They see it as a death sentence. lo aleinu.
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ora_43




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Apr 02 2020, 1:35 am
imorethanamother wrote:
Literally anyone that dares say anything like that on this website is immediately labelled with the most extreme language I've ever seen on this website. I mean, I've seen you on every thread being extremely vehement about this.

My husband spent part of last week in meetings where they talked about who will and won't get a ventilator once they run out. (no, he's not a doctor - just ftr, because that tends to be the assumption)

I also understand math, and the way small odds turn into real lives over a large population.

Between the two, where other people see "the odds of any of us dying are, like, really small" I see a situation where, on a larger scale, at least 50 people are going to die.

Tell me, what would you like me to do with that understanding? What response would be calm and reasonable enough for you?

And is it so hard to imagine a situation where somebody irrationally screams warnings they know will be ignored out of love, not a sense of superiority?

Believe me (or don't - it's your choice), I would love to find out I've been wrong about everything I've said on every coronavirus thread here.
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amother
Ivory


 

Post Thu, Apr 02 2020, 2:05 am
KJ is working now on converting aishes chayil to a mini hospital, outfitted with ventilators because unfortunately the hospitals are overwhelmed and nebach neglecting patients involuntary.
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notshanarishona




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Apr 02 2020, 7:11 am
aliavi wrote:
The hospitals and doctors don’t want that due to liability issues and privacy concerns.


Many Nicu’s already have this set up so parents can watch their child from a far . Especially relevant when moms are not allowed in the Nicu for any reason (if sick or on medicines that have to stay in their room ). When the nurses are doing care, they move the camera away . I used to call the Nicu when I saw my son crying for too long and they would go to him. It’s definitely a tool that hospitals can use if they get the technology
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ora_43




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Apr 02 2020, 7:28 am
imorethanamother wrote:
Literally anyone that dares say anything like that on this website is immediately labelled with the most extreme language I've ever seen on this website. I mean, I've seen you on every thread being extremely vehement about this.

I've actually had half a thought to go on and start a thread like, 'I'm 76 years old, can I have my seventeen in-law children and their children over for Pesach?' just to watch people lose their absolute minds.

Also, do you not remember your own response when someone said elderly patients should be allowed to have visitors? Something along the lines of, she's an idiot, it would be a disaster, a single visitor with covid19 could kill half the residents?

And that wasn't even someone who said she was planning to ignore any rules.

All of us can reply harshly if we think someone isn't taking this seriously enough. You very much included.

It's not very fair to allow yourself to tear into people who disagree when it's something you see as important, but then call other people self-righteous, hysterical, etc, if they do the same.
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amother
Goldenrod


 

Post Thu, Apr 02 2020, 9:22 am
imorethanamother wrote:
Did you really say that humans have the key to life and death?
Looks like you read my post wrong. Go back and read my post carefully.
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imorethanamother




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Apr 03 2020, 3:34 am
ora_43 wrote:
Also, do you not remember your own response when someone said elderly patients should be allowed to have visitors? Something along the lines of, she's an idiot, it would be a disaster, a single visitor with covid19 could kill half the residents?

And that wasn't even someone who said she was planning to ignore any rules.

All of us can reply harshly if we think someone isn't taking this seriously enough. You very much included.

It's not very fair to allow yourself to tear into people who disagree when it's something you see as important, but then call other people self-righteous, hysterical, etc, if they do the same.


I did speak harshly, with regard to a hospital or nursing home environment. But when someone posts their elderly mother is all alone and should they go to her, it's not so simple to start yelling at people to stay home. It's also questionable whether parents who've already had coronavirus can have their families for yom tov, especially if all you have to do is drive to get there. The CDC website says:
Quote:

The decision to discontinue Transmission-Based Precautions should be made using a test-based strategy or a non-test-based strategy (I.e., time-since-illness-onset and time-since-recovery strategy). Meeting criteria for discontinuation of Transmission-Based Precautions is not a prerequisite for discharge.

Test-based strategy.
Resolution of fever without the use of fever-reducing medications and
Improvement in respiratory symptoms (e.g., cough, shortness of breath), and
Negative results of an FDA Emergency Use Authorized COVID-19 molecular assay for detection of SARS-CoV-2 RNA from at least two consecutive nasopharyngeal swab specimens collected ≥24 hours apart (total of two negative specimens) [1]. See Interim Guidelines for Collecting, Handling, and Testing Clinical Specimens for 2019 Novel Coronavirus (2019-nCoV).
Non-test-based strategy.
At least 3 days (72 hours) have passed since recovery defined as resolution of fever without the use of fever-reducing medications and improvement in respiratory symptoms (e.g., cough, shortness of breath); and,
At least 7 days have passed since symptoms first appeared


It then goes on to discuss that patients who have since recovered from Corona, released from quarantine or isolation, with these parameters are not as risk to infect others.

So even the CDC isn't as strict as some of the posters here.

THAT BEING SAID, there are halachic parameters for discontinuing activities that will increase a chillul Hashem due to it being tied to the performance of a specific mitzvah. So I'm not advocating in any way for minyanim to start up again, or Chabad-large type sedarim. But that some of the cases posted on this website were in a totally grey area that didn't merit the kind of anger that was unleashed.

And finally, every scientist has said that even with a full scale national quarantine, they were hoping for some 200,000 deaths. That's assuming everyone stays home. So to point fingers that no one would be getting sick and dying if only everyone listened to the quarantine is a bit exaggerated. Those deaths are based on spreading the illness as slowly as possible, with full understanding that most people in this country would get the illness, so that there would be enough ventilators. But no one is really saying that we can stop this virus in its tracks.
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ora_43




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Apr 03 2020, 4:26 am
imorethanamother wrote:
I did speak harshly, with regard to a hospital or nursing home environment. But when someone posts their elderly mother is all alone and should they go to her, it's not so simple to start yelling at people to stay home.

Pretend for a second that we're creating a list of rules for all imamother members re: when people can and can't speak harshly about covid-19 risks. Is the rule going to be "when imorethanamother thinks it is dangerous, you can, if she thinks it's not so risky, you can't"?

If I have reason to think that it's very risky, right now, for someone to visit their elderly mother, why would it not be every bit as OK for me to say that, as it is for you to call someone out for risky behavior as defined by you?

Quote:
And finally, every scientist has said that even with a full scale national quarantine, they were hoping for some 200,000 deaths... But no one is really saying that we can stop this virus in its tracks.

Literally 99% of the posts telling everyone to stay home right now are talking about the danger of overcrowded hospitals, or the danger to specific sub-groups, not suggesting it's possible to stop the virus in its tracks.
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amother
Pink


 

Post Fri, Apr 03 2020, 8:32 am
I know an older man in hospital. There are no extra ventilators right now.
The drs asked the family if his heart stops should we recesitate. We don’t have a ventilator to give him after - and he will need one to live.

I’m hearing of ppl who will have life long damage when they awake. One man - healthy and young 50s - may have to start dialysis bec his kidnies are failing. He will wake up to this new reality. Oy.
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