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Crisis of emunah



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amother
OP


 

Post Tue, Apr 14 2020, 6:36 am
Just wanted to work this out, out loud. In the midst of another vacillation. I'm prone to those. I can hear both sides to an argument and think they are both absolutely right. I have no conviction it seems. At least, not enough.

I'm a geirus. At least I had the conviction to give up my Xtian roots. That I'm sure about. I have no question about that.

But I vacillate between wanting to be "more frum" and wanting to find a "comfortable medium" between the secular and religious world. And sometimes, I just want to be a good person and live a good life without all the religious rules.

Sometimes I think all these minhagim are just nuts and sometimes I like them because they make me feel closer to G-d. Like I am doing something more for Him.

Sometimes, I am a little jealous of my Reform neighbors because they seem to have the flexibility and conviction to do what is right to them. Whereas I do things sometimes because I want to keep in line with my Orthodox community so that I don't stray outside the lines and find myself on the "outside".

For sure, I believe in G-d. But I have never believed that there is one way for Judaism. I chose the way that I thought would be most meaningful to me at the time.

I don't like the ugliness I see in religious communities. I don't like how some communities use such ruthless tactics when a person goes astray or has questions or when a member breaks the law and the community does nothing. I don't like how there are communities of people that just go along with that. So disappointing and frustrating.

Why can't we just all be good people.
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sequoia




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Apr 14 2020, 6:39 am
Wow are you me? Smile
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amother
Floralwhite


 

Post Tue, Apr 14 2020, 6:50 am
There's more than one kind of Orthodox community. Maybe you haven't yet found your place.
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amother
OP


 

Post Tue, Apr 14 2020, 7:02 am
amother [ Floralwhite ] wrote:
There's more than one kind of Orthodox community. Maybe you haven't yet found your place.


No, I think I have found my place as far as community goes. One can't go back and forth between observant and not observant though; even in the most lenient of Orthodox communities. Not really.

That is not what I'm seeking anyway.

I really just wish I can find conviction and hold to it, in belief and spirit. I can go weeks, sometimes months and then all of a sudden vacillate in the other direction. I've been religious now for about 13 yrs. The first few years were great. Then, the shine began to wear off.

Would help if my DH believed with me. He more or less is observant in order to not break the status quo. He is more of the "I do this because what if there is a G-d and I don't want to be punished" type. He hates the TH rules. It gets tiring to tow the line. To consider the kids' schooling. To keep in line with "modesty". I truly believe there is nothing wrong with wearing a t-shirt and pants but I don't because it's not what the mainstream of my community does. It's not like wearing booty shorts and halter tops around town, leaving nothing to the imagination.

However, across the Orthodox communities, I see such hypocrisy. I, myself, am hypocritical.
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PinkFridge




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Apr 14 2020, 7:55 am
amother [ OP ] wrote:

However, across the Orthodox communities, I see such hypocrisy. I, myself, am hypocritical.


Are you hypocritical or cynical? (And if are hypocritical, this is life's big challenge: to unite ourselves and bring Hashem's achdus into the world. Achdus on a communal level but yes, our own inner consistency. When you say Sim Shalom in Shemoneh Esrei, daven for inner peace as well.)

You joined us at an interesting juncture. It's said that in the end days before Moshiach it'll be like a rope around the world, and we have to hold on tight while it's being shaken really vigorously. There are so many causes to become cynical and loosen our grip. You are not alone!

Rabbi Frand has an essay and shiur on cynicism that talks about Amalek and leitzanus and cynicism. I'm going to try to track it down and listen again.

Do you have any mentors, any IRL people you respect you can bounce things off of also? I'm saying also because you might get some good stuff here.

Matzah is an interesting mitzvah. While eating food is a specific mitzvah, like kezayis on Shabbos and Succos in the succah, this is the only time we actually eat a specific food for the mitzvah. Matzah is a food of emunah. When we eat it, we gain in emunah. Though don't ask me the mechanics Wink

Have a wonderful, healthy, and happy yom tov!
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amother
OP


 

Post Tue, Apr 14 2020, 8:31 am
PinkFridge wrote:
Are you hypocritical or cynical?

Do you have any mentors, any IRL people you respect you can bounce things off of also? I'm saying also because you might get some good stuff here.

Matzah is an interesting mitzvah.


I think I'm both hypocritical and cynical. I recognize the hypocrisy which is why it bothers me that I vacillate. If I didn't vaccilate so much, I wouldn't be so hypocritical.

I have one mentor IRL. She is great! She is truly an inspiration. But she doesn't live in my community. Met her through Partners in Torah.

I don't connect with our LOR or rebbetzin. Which is a shame. I really need someone in the community to look to, as does my DH. But I'm not about to uproot my kids and change jobs, etc in search of the elusive inspirational LOR.

I actually like matzah. I don't find it difficult to eat or go without on Pesach. We don't eat gebrokts either and it's not a difficulty for me. Although I'm looking forward to challah, I don't mind Pesach actually. Although this year, our imported shmura matzah was all broken except for 3 of them. Very disappointed and angry I paid so much...then I think. We didn't have the luxury of checking them. What a racket!
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zaq




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Apr 14 2020, 8:49 am
You sound normal. Be skeptical of anyone who says "I have never had any questions, I have absolute faith, I believe with perfect faith everything I was ever told, and I have never seen any contradictions." Such a person is either lying or a fool. Even great Torah leaders will admit that they sometimes struggle to understand G-d and His ways, why He does what He does or allows things to happen in the way that they do. Questioning and having doubts means you're an intelligent thinker, not a heretic.

Hypocrisy means publicly professing certain beliefs while deliberately flouting them in private. Hypocrisy is lecturing women about tznius in public and watching p()rn in private. Hypocrisy is making ostentatious public pledges every time you get an aliyah and never paying up. Hypocrisy is crying poverty to the tuition committee when you just bought a big new house, a luxury car, and took your extended family to a hotel in EY for Sukkot.

One is not supposed to deviate in practice from the tzibbur, but there is no requirement to align one's personal opinions with the party line. Having doubts is not hypocrisy. Observing despite your doubts is not hypocrisy. Following your community's practices even though you think they're unnecessarily rigid is not hypocrisy.

Observing mitzvot out of fear of punishment is not the highest level of functioning, but it is still functioning. Whether a person keeps a mitzvah out of fear of punishment or out of love of ritual or love of G-d or out of respect for loved ones living or dead, the bottom line is that the person is keeping the mitzvah. There is always the hope that mitoch shelo lishmah ba lishmah, but even if he never reaches that level, he is still keeping the mitzvah.

Like most "holy wars," the violence and other ugliness used in some communities to enforce conformity has nothing to do with religion and everything to do with power and control. Disillusioning as this fact may be, try not to conflate the behavior of some practitioners of the religion with the religion itself.
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amother
OP


 

Post Tue, Apr 14 2020, 9:29 am
PinkFridge wrote:


Rabbi Frand has an essay and shiur on cynicism that talks about Amalek and leitzanus and cynicism. I'm going to try to track it down and listen again.


I just read that essay. I will show it to DH. I especially identify with the paragraph that starts "Save me from the proverbial guys in the back of the shul that no matter what the Rabbis say,...always have to make a "one-liner"...

I can hear my DH laughing with his neighbor at the end of mussaf because they have done their "required davening" and now are just smoozing until kiddush time. He tries not to do this so much lately because he knows it's not right and it also bothers me but sometimes it just can't be helped and the temptation is there. Plus doesn't want to be rude to his friend and doesn't want to appear "holier than though".

However, this type of attitude is very visible at our shul. I suspect its not just our shul.

We don't have a lot of Rabbis at our shul but one of them is very cynical and critical. It's disappointing and disheartening. He appears as just a cranky curmudgeon.
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amother
OP


 

Post Tue, Apr 14 2020, 9:54 am
zaq wrote:


Like most "holy wars," the violence and other ugliness used in some communities to enforce conformity has nothing to do with religion and everything to do with power and control. Disillusioning as this fact may be, try not to conflate the behavior of some practitioners of the religion with the religion itself.


The negative feelings bother me. To have a tendency to lump all people of a specific sect bothers me and I know this isn't true but humans are humans. To have actual G-d fearing people lose sight of kindness and mercy and have such contempt and anger. One can't help but take notice which causes questioning and doubt of why a custom came to be, really.

So, for example, hair covering. (I don't actually mind hair covering. But then again, my real hair isn't so great anymore. This is just an easy example.) So we learn this from the sotah. And now we do it because of Daas Yehudis. (I'm going by remote memory hear.) But is it just an expression of male oppression? This is what my mind thinks which then leads me to think this was something that was incorporated because it was part of societal norm back in the day and now has appeared somehow as "halacha". And then I resign myself to the fact that "well, so what. If it's just societal norm then this is what we do and I'm part of the community and this is how we follow..." and thus comes the vacillation. Everyone lives by societal norms. I guess I vacillate with my choice of society.
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zaq




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Apr 14 2020, 11:26 am
you may relate to this article but don't worry if you don't.
https://www.chabad.org/theJewi.....e.htm

FTR I am not remotely a Chabadnik and am not trying to recruit anyone to the movement.
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naturalmom5




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Apr 14 2020, 11:35 am
zaq wrote:
You sound normal. Be skeptical of anyone who says "I have never had any questions, I have absolute faith, I believe with perfect faith everything I was ever told, and I have never seen any contradictions." Such a person is either lying or a fool. Even great Torah leaders will admit that they sometimes struggle to understand G-d and His ways, why He does what He does or allows things to happen in the way that they do. Questioning and having doubts means you're an intelligent thinker, not a heretic.

Hypocrisy means publicly professing certain beliefs while deliberately flouting them in private. Hypocrisy is lecturing women about tznius in public and watching p()rn in private. Hypocrisy is making ostentatious public pledges every time you get an aliyah and never paying up. Hypocrisy is crying poverty to the tuition committee when you just bought a big new house, a luxury car, and took your extended family to a hotel in EY for Sukkot.

One is not supposed to deviate in practice from the tzibbur, but there is no requirement to align one's personal opinions with the party line. Having doubts is not hypocrisy. Observing despite your doubts is not hypocrisy. Following your community's practices even though you think they're unnecessarily rigid is not hypocrisy.

Observing mitzvot out of fear of punishment is not the highest level of functioning, but it is still functioning. Whether a person keeps a mitzvah out of fear of punishment or out of love of ritual or love of G-d or out of respect for loved ones living or dead, the bottom line is that the person is keeping the mitzvah. There is always the hope that mitoch shelo lishmah ba lishmah, but even if he never reaches that level, he is still keeping the mitzvah.

Like most "holy wars," the violence and other ugliness used in some communities to enforce conformity has nothing to do with religion and everything to do with power and control. Disillusioning as this fact may be, try not to conflate the behavior of some practitioners of the religion with the religion itself.


The sefer haikkurim , a Rishon as well as other basic texts from 1000 years ago say this
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imorethanamother




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Apr 14 2020, 11:43 am
amother [ OP ] wrote:
The negative feelings bother me. To have a tendency to lump all people of a specific sect bothers me and I know this isn't true but humans are humans. To have actual G-d fearing people lose sight of kindness and mercy and have such contempt and anger. One can't help but take notice which causes questioning and doubt of why a custom came to be, really.

So, for example, hair covering. (I don't actually mind hair covering. But then again, my real hair isn't so great anymore. This is just an easy example.) So we learn this from the sotah. And now we do it because of Daas Yehudis. (I'm going by remote memory hear.) But is it just an expression of male oppression? This is what my mind thinks which then leads me to think this was something that was incorporated because it was part of societal norm back in the day and now has appeared somehow as "halacha". And then I resign myself to the fact that "well, so what. If it's just societal norm then this is what we do and I'm part of the community and this is how we follow..." and thus comes the vacillation. Everyone lives by societal norms. I guess I vacillate with my choice of society.


Ooh! I used to do Partners in Torah but haven’t in so longgg. You actually have great questions! What you’re asking is about society norms, not religion per se. That’s an important distinction. In Persian frum circles, for example, pants were considered more tznius than skirts. Less chance of seeing up your skirt, I guess. Many frum nurses and doctors wear pants, because that’s the job. I happen to think nothing is so great about an upper arm or a clavicle, etc. However, when you see the overall “look” of a girl who dresses this way, often it’s just such a stark difference between a girl who doesn’t at all. I have a child in public school, so I see it all the time.

It’s like when you see a police force. If each army member got to modify their uniform, suddenly it wouldn’t look like a unit any longer. I think that’s kind of the idea. Luckily, we aren’t the army and we do get to modify our uniform to express our personality, and I think there’s a lot of leeway to do so. And even the women who people decry as “too s-xy” but are technically conforming to the halachic mandates as they see fit, well, I think that it’s a deliberate choice of Judaism to have that included as well. We have a lot of stretch for personal expression.

I’m a feminist, so I hear what you’re saying about hair covering, but there’s literally no one visible who doesn’t modify their hair in some way to conform to society. Actresses wear wigs and weaves and extensions. Most black women go through extensive hair treatments if they don’t wear wigs. Older people color their hair to look as young as possible for as long as possible. Men get hair plugs. For me, I think that wearing a wig made me look better and that even if I wasn’t religious, I’d have adopted some method of adding to my hair at this point.

It’s funny you think that Reform has such flexibility, because I see the same in orthodoxy. We take whatever Halacha we have and personalize it and make it palatable, and if we are lucky, lovable.

As for ostracizing members that don’t conform, that is a personal choice. I’m still friends with my friends who have completely left Judaism, and we hang out and text. Family members too.

Be the change you want to see.
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PinkFridge




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Apr 14 2020, 12:32 pm
amother [ OP ] wrote:
I think I'm both hypocritical and cynical. I recognize the hypocrisy which is why it bothers me that I vacillate. If I didn't vaccilate so much, I wouldn't be so hypocritical.

I have one mentor IRL. She is great! She is truly an inspiration. But she doesn't live in my community. Met her through Partners in Torah.

I don't connect with our LOR or rebbetzin. Which is a shame. I really need someone in the community to look to, as does my DH. But I'm not about to uproot my kids and change jobs, etc in search of the elusive inspirational LOR.

I actually like matzah. I don't find it difficult to eat or go without on Pesach. We don't eat gebrokts either and it's not a difficulty for me. Although I'm looking forward to challah, I don't mind Pesach actually. Although this year, our imported shmura matzah was all broken except for 3 of them. Very disappointed and angry I paid so much...then I think. We didn't have the luxury of checking them. What a racket!


Oy, I'm sorry I can't hug your posts.
This whole shopping season was weird. Particularly if we couldn't go into stores and had to rely on shoppers. Who rock, don't get me wrong, but one doesn't end up with what one would have picked herself iykwim. I don't know if that had anything to do with your matzah. But while I'm not Hashem's accountant I can guarantee you got incredible sechar for your investment in the mitzvah of matzah.
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