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Is a dishwasher cheaper than disposable dish?
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Starhavah




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Dec 16 2007, 7:29 pm
Ribbie Danzinger wrote:
I understand that choco has a heter to use for either milk or meat but whichever she uses she can do pareve in the same dishwasher.
Am I right?

I think that there are sefardi poskim who allow both milk and meat in the same dishwasher. I would surmise that davka using hotter water makes it more lenient. Besides which, the detergent is pogem ta'am [I.e. spoils the taste] which would add to the leniency. Obviously, you would have to clean the filter inbetween.
(and obviously, don't do this on the basis of my surmises, ch"v. ASK A RAV)


My DH holds by Rabbi Bar Hayyim in Israel. He holds that the soap does indeed make the dishes pogem taam (disgusting/not eatable) and therefore you can run milk, meat and parve in the same dishwasher in seperate loads without even changing racks. I do inspect the dishwasher and racks for bits of food that got left behind (a very rare occurrance).

Of course I would still love to have 2 dishwashers, but...oh well in olam haba maybe.

Star Havah
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bashinda




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Dec 16 2007, 8:39 pm
chavamom wrote:
Starhavah wrote:
I am appalled that none of you have mentioned the cost to the enviornment. If you live in the south or Israel (I do not know about Europe, etc) where water is scarce you should use disposables.


Water, regardless of where you are is a renewable resource. Styrofoam disposables are going to be around in landfills for hundreds of years. AND disposables use a LOT of water in their production. Not a simple equation.


Agreed. I find it a little strange that someone would encourage disposable dishes to help save the environment.

Not like it doesn't have it's place. After having my trips and maybe even before I really didn't have a choice it was either finding someone else to clean the dishes or having disposibles but I'm not a fan. I went back to regular dishes especially for Shabbos as early as I was able.

I'd get a dishwasher if I could but until then the dishwasher is me B"H.
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MahPitom




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Dec 16 2007, 8:39 pm
I know that outside of ovens and flames, there are rebbes who hold differently about microwaves and other electronic devices which do not use heat/

If you don’t mind guys, I’d like to keep the nastiness (WE HOLD SHE HOLDS) out of this post and back to my original question. Thanks.
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chocolate moose




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Dec 16 2007, 8:41 pm
you don't hear me tallkin', do ya ?
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bashinda




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Dec 16 2007, 8:52 pm
MahPitom wrote:
I know that outside of ovens and flames, there are rebbes who hold differently about microwaves and other electronic devices which do not use heat/

If you don’t mind guys, I’d like to keep the nastiness (WE HOLD SHE HOLDS) out of this post and back to my original question. Thanks.


I think based on what you yourself said about not feeling comfortable about using disposables because of baal tashchis I'd go with a dishwasher. Do the research, find a good energy saving one and use it in good health! Hatzlacha Raba!
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Starhavah




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Dec 18 2007, 8:33 pm
chavamom wrote:
Starhavah wrote:
I am appalled that none of you have mentioned the cost to the enviornment. If you live in the south or Israel (I do not know about Europe, etc) where water is scarce you should use disposables.


Water, regardless of where you are is a renewable resource. Styrofoam disposables are going to be around in landfills for hundreds of years. AND disposables use a LOT of water in their production. Not a simple equation.


bashinda wrote:
Agreed. I find it a little strange that someone would encourage disposable dishes to help save the environment.

Not like it doesn't have it's place. After having my trips and maybe even before I really didn't have a choice it was either finding someone else to clean the dishes or having disposibles but I'm not a fan. I went back to regular dishes especially for Shabbos as early as I was able.

I'd get a dishwasher if I could but until then the dishwasher is me B"H.


Actually, I find it "a little strange" that someone who is using disposables rather than washing dishes is criticizing me for having said that ther are places in the world where water is more scarce than landfill space.

Israel, of course, does not have much landfill space, but water is even scarcer. Africa is a nother place where water is more scarce than landfill space.

Number 2, I never advocated the use of styrofoam! There was no mention of which kind of disposables. Obviously, there are better and worse choices in disposables. The best being Chinet brand and the worse beign styrofoam.

Number 3, water is NOT a renewable resource. Waste water is cleaned and then discharged into a salt water source if at all possible. It is never discharged into a resevior since it is never considered clean enough to drink again.

Star Havah
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bashinda




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Dec 18 2007, 9:06 pm
Starhava you're being too nice. Can you be more snarly next time you respond to my post?

At any rate, I think it's possible to have used disposables in the past and still be able to express a viewpoint that they're not the best things for the environment overall. As I believe I actually said on this thread, I tend to use regular dishes and I'm the dishwasher. So next time reading posts might help a little...
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chavamom




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Dec 19 2007, 12:00 am
All water is a renewable resource regardless of where it is discharged. Remember, evaporation, rain, replenishing the water table and aquifers...that whole cycle????
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chaimsmom




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Dec 19 2007, 11:02 am
chavamom wrote:
All water is a renewable resource regardless of where it is discharged. Remember, evaporation, rain, replenishing the water table and aquifers...that whole cycle????

It's not that simple. The amount of usable water is decreasing and even countries that never had an issue with usable water supplies are starting to experience problems.

http://drinking-water.org/html......html
http://www.ec.gc.ca/water/en/m.....s.htm
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Starhavah




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Dec 19 2007, 11:50 am
chavamom wrote:
All water is a renewable resource regardless of where it is discharged. Remember, evaporation, rain, replenishing the water table and aquifers...that whole cycle????


That is not a renewable resource. There is a finite amount of water on the planet. As it is used we discharge it into the oceans. Yes, some of it evapoates and then rains in area where it can be reclaimed as drinkable water, however not nearly as much can be reclaimed as drinkable water as was used by humans. Let us assume that every inch of water that falls over land is considered as drinkable (something we as intelligent adults know is not true) still 66% (2 thirds) of the Earth is covered with oceans. 66% of the water that falls over the earth falls right back into the oceans. So at most only 33% of the water used in your household can be reprocessed to be reused in someone else's or your house (but actually the number is far lower).

Star Havah
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Starhavah




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Dec 19 2007, 11:51 am
bashinda wrote:
Starhava you're being too nice. Can you be more snarly next time you respond to my post?

At any rate, I think it's possible to have used disposables in the past and still be able to express a viewpoint that they're not the best things for the environment overall. As I believe I actually said on this thread, I tend to use regular dishes and I'm the dishwasher. So next time reading posts might help a little...


I only responded to you in kind.

Before giving tochacha look in the mirror.

Star Havah
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chocolate moose




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Dec 19 2007, 12:02 pm
meow
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mimsy7420




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Dec 19 2007, 3:16 pm
It's still better to "waste" water through using a dishwasher then filling up landfills with non-biodegradeable waste. Plus, when you wash your pots in the sink and let water run throughout that 2-3 minutes it takes to wash the pot (longer for a dirty pot) you are wasting more water then a dishwasher would.
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chocolate moose




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Dec 19 2007, 3:37 pm
I find it hard to believe that a dishwasher uses less water than washing by hand, but hey ............
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bashinda




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Dec 19 2007, 5:30 pm
Starhavah wrote:
bashinda wrote:
Starhava you're being too nice. Can you be more snarly next time you respond to my post?

At any rate, I think it's possible to have used disposables in the past and still be able to express a viewpoint that they're not the best things for the environment overall. As I believe I actually said on this thread, I tend to use regular dishes and I'm the dishwasher. So next time reading posts might help a little...


I only responded to you in kind.

Before giving tochacha look in the mirror.

Star Havah


Who's giving tochacha? Scratching Head

I don't think you really responded in kind. I really don't thnk I was being snarly and I try not to be snarly and yet I find myself with someone acting very very snarly. I chose to respond with humor.

Have a nice day.
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MommyLuv




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Dec 19 2007, 5:41 pm
I really don't get how anyone can read anything nasty in Bashinda's earlier post... She is one of the sweetest members here. Scratching Head
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raizy




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Dec 31 2007, 9:17 pm
let me put it this way.

when I feel up to it. I use my dishwasher with real dishes etc. the kids get "real plastic" that I wash and reuse.

when I am tired and need energy for other stuff I use disposable.

let just say its both cheap. because to use up my energy when I dont have any is not a good idea. I would rather use disposable and still have kuach to do other things at night. then stand that 10 mintes and load the dishwasher. mind u even if I use disposable I still have pots and other stuff to wash.
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red sea




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Dec 31 2007, 9:57 pm
It probably runs similar in cost and similar in environmental concerns depending on your choices but I like eating on real dishes better. If I buy disposables I at least use paper plates. I mean should we ban washing dishes by hand because of water shortages? Im not so sure the water bill goes up by using a dishwasher, just the electric and cost of soap. I never heat dry, only air and I only use soap none of the other stuff you can put in the dishwasher. Unless there is a drought I dont think dishes is the first place to cut water usage, its usually lawns and cars and water saver shower heads and toilet tanks.
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grin




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jan 01 2008, 3:00 pm
I think it really depends on the size of your family and their ages. I decided after my 4th was born that my kochos were more important than other concerns (that also solves the issue of bal tashchis) but when we did the math, it turned out that the dishwasher would pay for itself (inc. original cost!) in about 5 years - at Israeli exhorbitant elecricity prices. It also is I think more chinuchi to use "normal" dishes than disposables.
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