I disagree with the content of what my sons teacher teaches

Starhavah

Thu, Dec 27 2007, 12:01 pm

micki wrote:

I spoke to the teacher and told her what happened and she said she is not responsible for what happens at home. she can only control what happens in the class and whatever follows at home is not her problem.

Miki, I have been a teacher for more than 15 years. I have also been a principal. If any one of my teachers took such a careless attitude about the effect their words had on their students, I would fire them on the spot. Parents and teachers must work together as a team. A child listens to his teacher because he respects her. A parent needs to support the teacher in front of the child. It sounds like you did. You spoke to the teacher in private (was covered in a later post) and told her how your child took the information she supplied. That was an honest assessment. You did not want to disagree with the teacher (and from the posts here there is no evidence that you did, you clarified what the teacher taught and allayed the fears of your child-completely resonable on your part).

But just as the parents have a duty to support the teacher, the teacher has a duty to support the home enviorment. I do not know what kind of a day school your son is in, but he might eventually be there for 8-10 hours per day between teffillah, limudei kodesh and limudei chol. Teachers need to realize that what happens at school, does not stay at school - it goes home with the child. How a child acts at home is effected by what they are taught is acceptable behavior in school and visa versa.

Here is what I would do in that situation. I would set up an appointment with the principal. Say that you are concerned that this teacher is very young she has made at least two inappropriate statements (she is not resposonsible for how a child understands her lessons after the child leaves the classroom, and that the teacher liked your other son much better) to you and screamed at you in front of her students. She is either overwhelmed (having a 2 year old at home and caring for 4-5 year old boys all mornign can do that to a person) or she is in desperate need of some mentoring. My guess is that it is a combination of both. The teacher might need a lighter work load until her child is a little older. Also is she pregnant? If she is young with a 2 year old at home she might leave for maternity leave before the year is out. A new teacher in the classroom might be able to repair the damage to the parental relationships this teacher has done. In any case, present it to the principal as you want the principal to be aware that this teacher is showing signs of stress and you are concerned about her, the effect she is having on the kids and the school's reputation. Offer to help in anyway you can. People are always open to a concerned parent who is willing to offer help more than one who just wants to complain.

I have a friend who is also a teacher and wants one of the teachers at our daughters' school fired since she has done some inappropriate things with an upper grade. My friend has an older daughter in the school as well. The principal knows me quite well and I sub at the school regularly. I went to the principal and said, "Look, I know that several of the parents have complained about one of the teachers in grade X. I do not know what I can do to help, but if you need anything I am here. I have a lot of experince with that grade and I would love to help the teacher and the school in any way possible." The principal thanked me for my offer and, as far as I know, things have improved.

Good luck your son's teacher sounds young, inexperienced and overwhelmed.

Star Havah

micki

Thu, Dec 27 2007, 12:17 pm

wow star- can I print out your post and show it to the principal?
she is ALL the things you said.
young inexperienced, pregnant, has a 2 yr old and has no patience or experience.
I have always been careful NEVER to speak badly of any teacher in front of any child and I said this to the principal. I give her respect, I demand respect in return. I do not appreciate being attacked by my sons teacher ever. ALso this teacher told me that she saw I called on Sunday but did not call me back until wed because she knew I was just calling to complain. I said when have I EVER complained in the past? She said, "well you called me to say that you son lost his gloves and hat and I did not appreciate yu complaining about that."
I was stunned to silence.
also mumoo- if you read the first post, you'll see that this is not a verbal interpretation, but rather a direct quote from the newsltter she sent home.
The bris comment was verbal, but after speaking to several parents, we confirmed it among 5-6 students who all said the same thing.

Starhavah

Thu, Dec 27 2007, 12:33 pm

micki wrote:

wow star- can I print out your post and show it to the principal?

Actually, it will be better if it comes from you rather than from me. Just tell the principal that you are concerned about her. She has a small child at home, is pregnant and clearly under stress. Give examples of inappropriate behavior/comments including that you called on Sunday (state that this is unusual for you) and that she returned your call on Wednesday since she was afraid you would be complaining. If she was busy with her own child that is one thing, but to not return a call because she did not want to hear what you had to say? That is immature and irresponsible. Say that as a parent, you feel that she is shutting you out of the educational process and that you do not want the school or the children to suffer. Many times if the moms can gather a group and offer to volunteer in the classroom as an assistant (say get 5 moms and each take one day of the week or 10 moms and each have once every other week) she will be relieved of some of the burden of discipline in the classroom. That can make a big difference for an overtired, young teacher.

Good luck,

Star Havah

Starhavah

Wed, Jan 02 2008, 6:21 pm

micki wrote:

well I just wanted another opinion here, would you teach this?
"we talked about the influence bad neighbors can have on us. As long as the Jews lived in goshen they only learned torah and davened to hashem. once they moved out of goshen they started serving idols, the sheep that the mitzrayim served, becasue they were living among the non jews and learned from them."

our school has many non jewish teachers. how would they feel to pick this up? any intelligent person would say, well if we cannot live and tlearn from the non jews how can I learn from a non jewish teacher?

Micki, I can't tell you what awful things I have heard Charedi kids say to non-Jewish teachers because they were taught that non jews do not deserve respect by limudei kodesh teachers. And before the rest of you jump all over me remember I am only stating the actions of the kids based on what they say the LK teacher taught. I am making no claims about what L.K. teacher actually said. I do not believe that any LK teacher ever said, "It is ok to go up to your LH teacher ask if she is going to be your slave in Olam Haba". But a student did ask that of his 7th grade LH teacher. I am not saying that all L.K. teachers do this, nor am I saying it only happens in Charedi schools, but that is where I have encountered it.

Back to Micki - it is assur to speak lashon hara about non jews if only so as to protect Jews from pogroms. Many Rabbeim rule that it is not halackically theft to steal from a [gentile] even if it is morally wrong and a hillul HaShem. I would guess your son's teacher is in that camp. She is emphasising the "it is not theft to steal from a [gentile]" side, rather than the "it is still morally wrong and a hillul haShem side". I assume if you were teaching you either would not say this at all or you would teach the whole statement rather than the part your son's teacher is teaching. Clearly, you are very unhappy with what is happening at the school.

My guess is that you are either not as frum or not the same kind of frum as they are. This can be a very touchy situation. Since I did not see a post about what happened when you spoke to the principal last time I am not going to suggest it again. Because if you thought the principal was open to your complaints you might have just taken this to her.

Ok, I absolutely would never have taught this in this way. I would have presented it totally differently. It is one thing to tell a child that the Levites kept their Jewish names in Egypt as a form of non-assimilation. It is completely different to say to a child using store bought mayonaise on Pessach is assur because your great-great grandmother in Poland could not buy mayonaise she had to make it -- especially when you know or suspect that the child's parents buy kosher for Passover products that you would not use.

There are 2 problems here, a long term one and a short term one. Short term: What are you going to do about the son in this woman's class? You could complain to the principal again and hope she reins in the teacher, speak to the teacher (I do not recommend this - your relationship with her is not good enough), just hope that your reteaching of your son at home will make enough of a difference or sit him down every afternoon and give him your opinion of learnings. I teach my daughter that tzedak is a mitzvah by giving it. Whenever we are out and someone asks for money, we give it. I always pause and say a few nice words to the "beggar". I treat them as a human being. I never ask if they are Jewish, eventhough the mitzvah is bigger if you give to a Jew. That is one way of teaching my values to her. non jews are people to, and children of HaShem, just like us. IMHO

This teacher is pregnant and will be leaving on maternity leave soon, right? Consider sticking it out this year. It will be very hard for you because you believe this teacher is not teaching your values. I know you will want to scream a lot, but without another school in the area it might just be your best short term solution. Next year he will not be in this woman's class and for part of this year. Hopefully (for you), she will not return after maternity leave. A lot of young mothers don't.

In the long run, you and your husband need to decide: if you should move to another city with a larger Jewish community, form a competing school, homeschool your children or, if the rest of the teachers ok and you want to stay with this school.

I am so glad I love my daughter's school. I could not ask for a better school and despite the fact that I hate the weather in Chicago, I will not leave here until she is finished with this school because I know I will never find a school I like better, even if there are one or two teachers I do not like.

Good Luck,

Star Havah

micki

Wed, Jan 02 2008, 7:41 pm

hi- I actualy have a meeting to continue to discuss this teacher. I spoke to him breifly before but all he did was listen so now at the meeting we will have a chance to talk more.

as to frumkeit, I believe that I was raised very open minded and loving of any human. I think it is because I am lubavitch that I have this outlook as the lub rebbe taught us to love every jew no matter what. I saw how the rebbe gave a dollar to a woman wearing a mini skirt and tight top, but he only looked into her eyes and saw her neshama.
many other frum jews would have thrown a woman like this out the door.
I do not want to say what this teacher is, so as to not label that group however she comes from a group that are very narrow minded and making fun of anyone that is not precisely in their mold. Her poor english skills, her constant negative messages to the children and her terrible communication skills are all part of her upbringing which would certainly say that there is nothing wrong from stealing from a [gentile].
While halachically that is true, I would NEVEr allow my children to even think that as it can cause a huge chillul hashem!
Is it any wonder that as the children grow older they have zero tolerance for anyone not int their mold? my 2nd grader came home saying that her whole class says they hate their english teacher becasue she is a [gentile]. I told my daughter that that is terrible and that she must tell the principal if this happens again. (plus another long discussion on why this is wrong) I s it any wonder that by 8th grade the boys are so out of control that no one wants to teach them? the chutzpa they have is intolerable.
but when the 4th grade rebbe tells his class of boys and girls mixed that the girls cannot be a chazzan in class unless they daven at temple israel (conservative) then what do they expect? they are teaching hatred and narrow mindedness that I work daily to undo.
as to moving, unfortunatly we cannot- as long as hubby has a job here- and opening another school- that is being thought aboout. B"H I do not have a child in this class for another 2 years so hopefully by then she will have gone to do something else.
homeschooling I would love to do, but I feel the social aspect is so important. however I and another few parents are thinking of pulling out and getting together just for hebrew.
at my meeting I would like to accomplish:
an apology to me from the teacher for speaking to me in a terrible way

a sensoring of her negativity by the principal

enlitening the principal on why I think this school has such chutzpa problems.