Mandatory Covid Vaccine

#BestBubby

Tue, May 26 2020, 6:44 pm

amother [ Purple ] wrote:

A canadian relative of mine was shocked that there is such a thing as "religious exemption" for immunization. It has nothing to do with religion. YOu want to quote Venishmartem ma'od lenafsheseichem. Research how many child death there was before immunization existed.

There are Non-Jewish Religions where vaccination is forbidden.

Actually, there was very low child death in the 1940s and 1950s before there was widespread vaccination.

It was clean water, sufficient food, flush toilets, running water, less overcrowding that sharply reduced child mortality before mass vaccinations.

And USA has the most vaccinated children and a higher child mortality rate compared to other first world countries.

amother

Pumpkin

Tue, May 26 2020, 7:12 pm

amother [ Purple ] wrote:

I'm not okay with using religion as an excuse. The doctors dont write medical exemptions just bec. the parent wants one, but when they decide that there is a significant risk to the child.

You too did not read this thread. My friend whom I mentioned earlier is not a one in a million situation either. You'd be surprised by how many people are in a similar situation to her. Since she had her story with her baby, she's been in touch with many others. I won't share those stories with you because they're already third-hand and I haven't verified them, but my friend unfortunately has IRL support from those in the same boat. Some of the people she's gotten to know, their child is dead (one that I know that was confirmed by doctor caused by vaccination) and they are understandably afraid to vaccinate siblings.

amother

Lemon

Tue, May 26 2020, 9:06 pm

#BestBubby wrote:

You are not listening. Did n't you read the post about a child who had two severe nearly fatal reactions to vaccines and cannot get a medical exemption?

Government is threatening doctors not to write medical exemptions.

Are you OK with that?

Best Bubby, after six pages of debate, I'm late on the scene, but I thought you'd like to know I signed the petition.

The below Chelation Kid segment is probably the tip-of-iceberg of things which have been relegated to the murky recesses of the long-ago Net. Mad

Long ago the entire cartoon was available, but now it's just a sampling. There has long been suppression of these issues, as well as radiation issues.

http://photos1.blogger.com/blo.....6.gif

SixOfWands

Tue, May 26 2020, 9:18 pm

#BestBubby wrote:

The US counts child mortality differently than other countries. And, of course, doesn't offer universal healthcare.

So, tell me what toilet innovations occurred between 1955 and 1957. In 1955, there were 28,955 cases of polio in the US, with 1043 deaths. Then the vaccine was introduced. In 1957, there were 5485 cases, 221 deaths.

But that's just a coincidence.

All of the falling infection and death rates are just a coincidence.

SixOfWands

Tue, May 26 2020, 9:22 pm

amother [ Pumpkin ] wrote:

The first doctor didn't believe that the issue was vaccine related. She should not have been required to write a false exemptions.

Its not clear to me that the second one believed it either. It makes no sense for a doctor to tell a parent that she believes the child will be seriously harmed if vaccinated, and then to say that she will nevertheless require vaccination by refusing to sign the form. That's the sort of thing you lose your license over. So I don't know why the doctor wouldn't sign. Its unconscionable if as presented. But its the doctor, not the state

#BestBubby

Tue, May 26 2020, 10:10 pm

SixOfWands wrote:

Doctors are pressured to deny that vaccines cause any injuries or death that follows vaccination. They claim that if 400 healthy children die after vaccination every year it is just a "co-incidence". Some even admit they won't sign medical exemptions or they can lose their license.

#BestBubby

Tue, May 26 2020, 10:19 pm

SixOfWands wrote:

It is documented that deaths from measles and other childhood diseases were reduced by 90% BEFORE vaccines were introduced. Here is the chart:

https://www.foreignpolicyjourn.....care/

Last edited by #BestBubby on Tue, May 26 2020, 10:37 pm; edited 2 times in total

amother

cornflower

Tue, May 26 2020, 10:28 pm

SixOfWands wrote:

We don't know if the first doctor didn't believe it, or just wanted to convince the mother that it wasn't because of the vaccine, so as not to sign an exemption.

The second doctor sounds like she does believe it but cannot afford to sign. And I'm sorry, but that makes sense the way things are right now.

banana123

Tue, May 26 2020, 10:31 pm

OutofTown Girl wrote:

I certainly agree with you about that first point. If my child were to have a vaccine-related injury (ch"v), it is a travesty that I would not be able to get a medical exemption for future vaccinations. Halachically I would actually not be allowed to continue vaccinating the child. You are right that in this case, where government overrules medical advice, we have a serious problem, and the medical exemption guidelines must be fixed.

I take issue with the second point. Unfortunately, vaccine-related injuries do exist. However, if my child is healthy, in accordance with the concept of "dash bo rabim" (something that most do safely is not considered dangerous), I can go ahead and vaccinate knowing that I did the appropriate hishtadlus. If my child were to ch"v be injured, that is what Hashem willed. It was not caused by the vaccine. If I believe that the vaccine caused the injury, that is a lack of bitachon and of recognizing that Hashem runs the world.

I don't want to repeat everything I wrote there on the other thread, if you had a chance to look at it. Suffice to say, I wonder why parents are even researching the reports of the statistically rare vaccine-related injuries (if their child has no known risk factors). That is not our halachic obligation - we are obligated to follow the advice of the majority of medical experts. There is no such thing as "doing extra hishtadlus" - once you overstep the bounds and do too much research into rare vaccine-related injury, you're showing that even the "allowable" amount of hishtadlus (I.e. speaking to your doctor and ascertaining that risk of adverse effects is low) was not done to satisfy the hishtadlus "quota" mandated by halacha, but because you really don't believe that Hashem is running the world.

Reminds me of the halacha where if a boy's older brothers died after bris mila you are not allowed to do a bris on him.
Of course that doesn't mean bris isn't safe for the vast majority of babies.

amother

Aubergine

Wed, May 27 2020, 2:42 am

ally wrote:

This is an excellent litmus test - thank you.

I think if people are worried about losing their religious freedoms, the first thing to do is stop abusing religious exemptions and pretending personal beliefs are a religious issue.

I agree with this theory.
They took away my rights, I want to not vaccinate because I have concerns over certain vaccines. But they dont give me a choice to choose
They took away my medical freedom.
So yes, I will try to hold on to any freedom I can get, which was religious exemptions in NY until it was removed.
I do see a religious issue with vaccines as well, I dont think its just a way out. There is legit religious reasoning to choose out. But truth is, most of us who don't vaxx, started from a place of health concerns and more we educated ourselves and learned about whats in the vaccines, how they are made and not tested, there is definitely room for a religious objection.

But the most honest objection for me, atleast, I dont think they are safe enough. I believe the risks out way the benefits.
I have a right to choose what enters my healthy childs body and my own. Its my right, and my right was taken away from me. Or im being discriminated against because of my right.
I wish there can just be a philosophicall objection, like so many other states have.

I just don't agree in mandatory vaccines.
I agree everyone has a right to choose.

But they took the right to choose away from me. And before you know it, more and more rights are being taken away from us, some that will likely effect you as well, and you wont like it one bit.
Thats the dangers in allowing our rights violated. Any rights. Religious rights, medical freedom rights, education rights, employment rights, just good old parent decision making rights. The list goes on.

The vaccine issue is not just about vaccines. Its our right to live, NOT in a communist country. If I wanted dictatorship I can move to china or north korea.
But I want freedom, in a Country that promises freedom as a right to all citizens.

Those freedoms and being challenged and stripped from us on a regular basis.
Open your eyes and realize how big of an issue this is.

May I mention, the numbers show that if a person resides in a democratic state, they have a significantly higher chance of passing away from covid 19 than a person who lives in a Republican state.
Think about that .
Power to the goverment
Vs
Power to the people

You know the constitution was written to ensure the goverment doesnt take too much control and give freedom to the citizens.

But now its all being twisted. They are going by a new rule book that has nothing to do with America and the constitution. Its a rule book called , how to be a rich, powerful politician, with bribes in the pocket, while convincing the constituents that my decisions are for their own good.
The level of unintelligent this world has come to is mind boggling

amother

cornflower

Wed, May 27 2020, 2:51 am

amother [ Aubergine ] wrote:

If it were a small number of people who don't vaccinate, this could be a philosophical discussion.

As things stand now, anyone choosing not to vaccinate is choosing not only to put their child at risk of VPDs, but to put everyone around their child at risk of VPDs. And when you directly threaten someone else's life or that of their loved ones, they start shooting right back at you, because you are a threat. So just understand that.

Quote:

The vaccine issue is not just about vaccines. Its our right to live, NOT in a communist country. If I wanted dictatorship I can move to china or north korea.
But I want freedom, in a Country that promises freedom as a right to all citizens.

Those freedoms and being challenged and stripped from us on a regular basis.
Open your eyes and realize how big of an issue this is.

So you stole my freedom from me. I had a choice of letting my baby contract measles and ch"v die or a choice of staying home for an entire year. YOU, not the state, YOU stripped my freedom from me while insisting that I grant you your freedom. And I'm far from the only one who had to make that choice, and far from the only one angry about it. Guess what, a lot of us are sick of the double-talk.

Quote:

May I mention, the numbers show that if a person resides in a democratic state, they have a significantly higher chance of passing away from covid 19 than a person who lives in a Republican state.
Think about that .
Power to the goverment
Vs
Power to the people

Do you not see that part of the reason for the difference is a) in Republican states people started staying home faster and earlier, while in Democratic states they insisted that freedom was more important than health, and b) Republican states are on the whole much less densely populated than Democratic states, so the virus doesn't spread as fast?

Correlation is NOT causation. I don't know when you guys will finally understand that. Correlation is not causation. Period.

Quote:

But now its all being twisted. They are going by a new rule book that has nothing to do with America and the constitution. Its a rule book called , how to be a rich, powerful politician, with bribes in the pocket, while convincing the constituents that my decisions are for their own good.
The level of unintelligent this world has come to is mind boggling

Please show me this book and the court that declared it constitutional. I would like in on the goodies.

potatoes

Wed, May 27 2020, 2:53 am

LovesHashem wrote:

Can someone explain why you are so scared of Autism and want an official study? Who is to not say Diabetes is higher with vaxxed children. Or Schizophrenia?

Why have you decided it’s Autism that must be higher and because of a completely ungrounded fear you want the CDC to make a study for something there is no proof is even an issue.

Ill try to answer your question.

Autism is brought up a lot first because a change in the childs behavior is noticed quickly or immediately after the vaccine is administered, for those children that this is effecting. So mother braught in a developmentally normal child to the well visits, and leaves with a child who, over the next few hours and days becomes lethargic, behavioral, spinning, stimming, self absorbed , self directed, leas eye contact. Overall regression. Its notices first.

Thats not to say that many of the childhood illnesses and issues today are not connected to vaccines. I am sure the diabetes, mental and emotional health issues, can all be related to vax as well. You will just hear about ASD more because the parents notice it more, quickly, and so obvious and easy to connect the dots of when the kids starting regressing.

LovesHashem

Wed, May 27 2020, 6:01 am

potatoes wrote:

So how many people can account first hand this happened to their child? 10? 100? 100,000?

amother

cornflower

Wed, May 27 2020, 6:13 am

LovesHashem wrote:

So how many people can account first hand this happened to their child? 10? 100? 100,000?

How many people actually saw it first-hand? Or how many people will now claim that it happened to their child? And your numbers - global, national, city-wide?

Autism is usually progressive-regressive. Meaning the child had some delays from the outset, but not enough to raise red flags, and then at some point the child began to regress as well. The regression is what alerted the parents, but the child was autistic from birth, it's just that the parents did not notice it until there was a regression.

For instance a child sometimes made eye contact but rarely, and didn't speak but understood everything, and was high-strung and easily annoyed. All of those are normal on their own, other than the rare eye contact, so it's unlikely that a parent would take their infant for a diagnosis. Then, let's say within the week after a vaccination, the parent notices that the child is starting to regress. This regression would've happened anyways but because of the timing the parent connects it to the vaccination, gets scared, and gets the infant diagnosed with autism. Boom! Parent can now say the child was normal but a vaccine caused their child to become autistic.

Or, in other instances, the child was not progressing normally in the emotional-social realm but because during the first year of life emphasis is placed more on the physical and motor development, the parents did not attach importance to the delayed development in "just one area." Then, at the 1-year well-child visit where the child received vaccinations, following the vaccination the doctor starts asking about words, social skills, emotional expression, etc. and tries to interact with the child, but fails. The parent now realizes that the child is not normal, and because the realization came during the same visit that the child received the vaccination (and cried, and the vaccination was traumatic for the parent), the parent's brain has now wired itself to connect vaccination with autism diagnosis.

Of course there are a few stories where there really was causation but on the whole, it's usually a horribly misinterpreted correlation. Even some of the causal incidents have underlying issues, such as a parent who brought her child in for a vaccination when the child had a fever.

However, parents - humans - naturally want to know why something happened, because knowing why means we can prevent it in the future, so when a child receives a diagnosis the first question is usually "why did this happen" "was it my fault" "what should I have done differently" and the parent's psyche searches for whatever will most easily remove the blame for the problem from themselves and place it on something outside themselves that is also easily controllable. Vaccines are good candidates for this, and they are given every few months during the first year, so they are easy to blame for many things that may or may not be connected to them.
Unfortunately the fact is that autism is genetic and autistic brains develop differently than other brains from gestation. Parents are not to blame, and do not have control over, whether their child is diagnosed with autism or anything else. Looking for who or what to blame won't solve the problem but it does cause other problems.