Manipulative child

amother

Tue, Jun 02 2020, 1:25 am

We just took DC9 for an ADHD assessment. The assessing doctor told us two things - first of all, we should do a follow-up computerized assessment with and without Ritalin to see if it makes a difference.

Second of all, the reason for the follow-up, which she doesn't usually recommend, is that she is not sure if DC has ADHD or is just manipulative, because in her words DC is "very manipulative."

Does anyone have suggestions for books on how to make manipulative children more normal and less manipulative?

imasinger

Tue, Jun 02 2020, 2:43 am

I'd suggest a second opinion about the diagnosis. While ADHD kids can at times throw tantrums or be really stubborn, there's more to the diagnosis than that.

What about extreme difficulty in focusing on many tasks, punctuated by occasional periods of hyperfocus? What about general executive functioning? What about overall energy levels, and a motor that doesn't want to slow?

For impacting behavior issues, you might try reading "Transforming the Difficult Child: The Nurtured Heart Approach". The method is helpful regardless of diagnosis; it changed our lives. Another good read is "The Explosive Child."

amother

Tue, Jun 02 2020, 3:09 am

imasinger wrote:

Obviously those are the reasons we went for the diagnosis in the first place, but all of those symptoms have more than one cause and many kids who seem like they have ADHD actually don't have it. I'm glad she sent us for further testing.

Thanks for the recommendations, I will look into them.

amother

Tue, Jun 02 2020, 3:18 am

Ora in town wrote:

In general, children are manipulative or become more manipulative when it benefits them...
The more you see through manipulation and circumvent it, the less they will be tempted to try it...

Yes....so the child manipulated preschool teachers and then again in school, and we pulled the child out so that the manipulation would stop bearing fruit.

Yet despite the fact that we do not give into the manipulation, see right through it, and put the child in their room so that there is no attention or feeding the manipulation, somehow the child does not give up. It's been about two years and the attempts are still there. Attempts to outsmart us, a belief that everything is up for negotiation, that outsmarting us and manipulating us is still an option, that it's okay to do whatever you want because there will be no consequences.

When we speak about it logically with DC, DC admits that the behavior is illogical and does not get anywhere with us. But why DC can't control the behavior, or why DC still tries these tactics despite their repeated failure, none of us can discern.

Ora in town

Tue, Jun 02 2020, 3:57 am

amother [ Burgundy ] wrote:

Children are not manipulative.
Were a professional or anyone to use that term in regard to child I would look elsewhere for advice and help.
hugs and hatzlocha

I beg to differ.
Children can be very manipulative...

Like this little sister who will provoke the bigger sister till she hits her and then run crying to the parents and big sister will get punished.

Like this five-year-old who throws a tantrum in the supermarket because he wants chocolate, but immediatly stops when he understands he is not with his mom and the tantrum won't get him his chocolate... and admits open-heartedly that it works with mom...

Like this 3-year-old who twists her baby sister's arm, when mommy is not looking, but will take on an angel-face as soon as mom comes back to the room...

Like all the children who pretend they are ill (dunk thermometer in the tea) when they did not do their homework or have an exam they did not learn for...

Ora in town

Tue, Jun 02 2020, 4:13 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Wow..

that's not exactly what I meant...

What I wanted to say is that the price for honesty should not be high... I.e. he should not benefit from manipulation, also in the sense that he should not think that honesty will bring punishment...

What I meant was saying in a playful way "Hey, I see right through you, but nice try"... so that he will understand that honest attempts are right as beneficial as manipulation...

amother

Tue, Jun 02 2020, 5:04 am

Ora in town wrote:

Been there. Done that. Tried that. Didn't work.

Still do it. Still doesn't work.

amother

Magenta

Tue, Jun 02 2020, 5:28 am

I also have a manipulative child, now 13. He is also extremely social-savvy, creative, artistic, good at sports, and both book-smart and street-smart. And he is a very good actor. He has given his teachers a hard time till this year and pretended to us that nothing is his fault. He had an explanation for everything, shirked the blame and responsibility, even when he masterminded prank upon prank on his teachers.
At age 3 I realized we were walking on eggshells around him and I knew then if I didnt stop it I'd have raised a monster.

He has grown up a lot BH and no longer does much of these things. Some of the things I'm working to instill in him include honesty (it's really not ok to cheat on tests!!! Does he have any of my genes? I can't lie to save my life) and reawakening his different interests (somehow he got stuck on soldiers and weapons and nothing else matters).

Three parenting tricks I've used with him that worked 100% of the time:
1) Always and only be positive. This is a tough one but it gets easier. Aim for a compliment to him 3 times a day and make it genuine. The more positivity, the smoother the path ahead will be. Criticizing, punishing, etc., is like sticking a mountain range right in the middle of that path.
2) Humor and hugs. Diffuse his stubbornness with a joke or funny story. And give him tight hugs randomly or when he is having a difficult time.
Also empathize with him, show him your on his side. Allow him to dream and don't knock those dreams. "I know you need your own room, I wish I had an extra room just for you. I hope one day we will be able to have one for you." (Slim chance but he feels good he was heard and validated.)
3) If I need to tell him something like an improvement in an aspect of his behavior, I respect his pride and find him when he's alone in a room, not in front of others. Since he is quick to grasp situations, it doesn't take more than a minute, and brings automatic results.

Now that he's grown up a bit since, I can tell him in front of his siblings and he won't mind much.
He has a way of bringing all the attention in the room to himself (his poor teachers) and we joke that he isn't the centerpiece that sits there for everyone to talk about. We give him attention but BH I have many other children and he cannot make a shabbos table all about himself.

One last thing- do not argue with him. His manipulations will take you to Mars and back and then back again. Just tell him what the rules are that he must follow, and what happens when he does and when he doesnt. Make it worth it for him to follow the rules. And stay there. No explanations or reasons why XYZ happened before ABC became DEF.

OOTforlife

Tue, Jun 02 2020, 5:28 am

Is it possible you misunderstood? On assessments, certain answer patterns can indicate that the subject is trying to manipulate the outcome. For example, if a person answers on their self-assessment that they are a "3" for every possible inattentive and hyperactive symptom, and a zero for all other things, I might think that person is trying to get a certain diagnosis and not answering honestly.

Maybe the doctor was saying that your child's answers suggest that he was trying to manipulate the assessment to reach a certain conclusion, and that is why the doctor wants to do a computerized follow up (which may be harder to manipulate). That would be very different than simply labeling the child manipulative wholesale.

amother

Tue, Jun 02 2020, 5:47 am

OOTforlife wrote:

She clearly said that the additional testing is to ascertain that the child has ADHD, because the child is "very manipulative" and the behavior could either be ADHD or simply behavioral issues. But the example you gave isn't how she tested, anyways.

We are going to do the test, and see if DC does better with the Ritalin than without. If so, then DC has ADHD. If not, then the manipulative behavior isn't ADHD, it's just manipulative behavior.

Ora in town

Tue, Jun 02 2020, 6:41 am

amother [ Magenta ] wrote:

Thank you.
I agree.