Anyone lives in/familiar with Alon Shvut?

amother

Fri, Jun 05 2020, 3:03 am

I need to update this thread in case anyone else is following... ALSO, IF MY INFORMATION IS WRONG, I HOPE SOMEONE WILL CORRECT ME. but it seems that it's officially in the rules. Elon Shvut will not let us move in if we are Chabad affiliated. Even if we would be firmly DL but not fit the narrow band of who they built the yishuv for--large knitted kippah and long payos instead of small knitted kippah and short payos, beard vs. clean-shaven--they would not want us.

This makes me sad, but I guess it is time to move on.

Thanks everyone who helped out with comments, suggestions, and contacts. I will still follow up on the off chance that this information is wrong. But in the meantime: Onward...

amother

Natural

Fri, Jun 05 2020, 3:15 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

I am not familiar with Alon Shvut, but yes, many yeshuvim are very narrow minded as to who they will accept in their selection committee. The entire idea of a selection committee is very controversial in Israel - I doubt it will still exist in a decade. (Why can't a secular person buy a house there? A Breslov? An Arab? There is something very discriminatory in this policy, even if the end result is that people get to live in nice communities).
Heck, I've heard of people turned away from yeshuvim for not being educated enough or for being divorced.
It's no big ge'ava to have the highest number of Phds on your yeshuv if you picked these people with a פינצטה as they say, and turned everyone else away.

Anyway, op, I HIGHLY recommend moving to the neighborhood where your kids will be attending school. It is not fun at all for a kid to go to a different town for school. In Israel, so much of the social life is local. I've seen my kids' classmates - in each class there are 2 or 3 kids who come from far away. They can't hang out with their friends after school, they can't meet up spontaneously, they can't schmooze on Shabbat. They aren't an integral part of the class dynamics. Their parents need to drive them long distances every time there is a school function or a classmate has a birthday party, or classmates are getting together to study for a test.
I understand sometimes there is no choice, and people make the best out of it. But you DO have a choice, you are looking to move now! Why would you put your kids at such a disadvantage?

And as an aside, why do you want to send them to schools where you don't fit in with the surrounding culture anyway?

Elfrida

Fri, Jun 05 2020, 6:00 am

amother [ Cerulean ] wrote:

OP sorry to hear about chabadnikim not eing allowed in to alon shvut.

It's not discrimination against Chabad. Its discrimination against anyone who doesn't fit the homogenous character of the yishuv. One can agree or disagree with that, but I wanted to clarify that it wasn't against any specific group.

I do agree the it is a lot better for children to be able to live near the school and be fully a part of it, rather than having to straddle two social settings and never being a full part of either of them.

Elfrida

Fri, Jun 05 2020, 6:01 am

amother [ Cerulean ] wrote:

OP sorry to hear about chabadnikim not eing allowed in to alon shvut.

Rappel

Fri, Jun 05 2020, 6:39 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

That's frustrating, OP. Are you sure they mean Chabad in general, or just meshichist? Alon Shvut is known to be very selective, but so are many towns in the Gush, and I've never heard of any of them having such a requirement.

banana123

Fri, Jun 05 2020, 7:25 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

I'm sorry about that. Can you call up the yishuv's mazkirut, just to double-check?

As an aside, if a yishuv has less than 400 families they are allowed to decide who gets to live there and who doesn't.

Rappel

Fri, Jun 05 2020, 7:33 am

banana123 wrote:

I never knew there was a precise number. I know Kochav Hashahar has 450ish families, and they definitely still have a klitah committee. Maybe they're counting Mitzpeh Kramim as a separate yishuv, so the numbers stay lower?

banana123

Fri, Jun 05 2020, 7:36 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Right--this is my understanding of how a Chabad school is likely to be. Not the same as chareidi schools as a whole (not that I know those firsthand, but what I hear...) A bit more open and welcoming.

Agree with you that Chabad-identified people in general often don't identify as chareidi per se, even if there may be some things in common. In fact--that's us. I think we may be unique in some ways but not so unique in this. In the US Chabad definitely does not identify as chareidi. And here too I don't think it's that different, though maybe the distinction is not quite as evident or clearcut as it is in the US (I don't know).

Chabad school is pretty important to us. Or at least, the end result is--I care a lot that my kids grow up to identify as Chabad, feel connected with the Rebbe, fit socially into the broader worldwide Chabad community.

Thanks so much for the suggestion to look into the school in Bat Ayin. I googled it with my husband and we found a video that I think is put out by that school (they never actually put their location in the video, but it seems like it could be Bat Ayin). It seems like a really sweet place and maybe a place we'd feel comfortable and be happy to send to. I would love to find out more, if you or anyone can give more information!

I think you will find that it is very different here. Many are the arguments I have had with Israeli Chabadnikim who insist that Chabad is chareidi, bringing proof that the Rebbe said girls should emulate Bais Yaakov in terms of tznius.

The levush may look alike but Chabad is definitely not chareidi. However.....the effects of being raised far from the Rebbe, with parents who were raised far from the Rebbe, has made itself clear, and Chabad in Israel tends to be more extremist and also more charedi-identifying than Chabad abroad. Letov ulemutav, as they say. Smile

By the way, a non-meshichist in the US is someone who does not say yechi, right? So here, a non-meshichist is someone who doesn't wear a yechi yarmulka and says yechi only quietly. Call him a meshichist and he will be insulted and appalled, that's not how he identifies. Whereas the meshichistim here border on Tzfatim to the American mind. Whatever...it is what it is.

It's not the area where you live but maybe Chabad of Arad (or maybe Be'er Sheva) would be good to look into. Maybe Itamar?

Last edited by banana123 on Fri, Jun 05 2020, 7:51 am; edited 1 time in total

amother

Natural

Fri, Jun 05 2020, 7:40 am

Rappel wrote:

Not familiar with Kochav Hashachar, but it's a well known schtick that yeshuvim pull, calling an adjacent neighbourhood a new yeshuv so they can still have a selection committee.

There are countless people who have been turned away from these selection committees. They will turn you away if you are different in the slightest.

Rappel

Fri, Jun 05 2020, 7:49 am

amother [ Natural ] wrote:

Well, we haven't been turned away yet. We must be that boring. Smile

But I agree - it's easy for an entrenched mazkirut to stagnate in its own power. It's something that bothers me and DH a lot - Jews should not be cutting down other Jews, in any context.

amother

Navy

Fri, Jun 05 2020, 7:55 am

ally wrote:

There is a Facebook group called Chabad English Speakers in Israel that would be a good resource for you.
Chabad in Israel is different culturally to US Chabad and does lean more chareidi. This is particularly true in the mainstream schools.

The group is a good resource but it is very narrow-minded. They don't mind giving the boot to anyone who sees Chabad as different than they see it, or who say things they don't agree with. So it's kind of like an echo chamber, except that they can answer location questions.

Be aware that the group's founders are also among the founders of a new wannabe town, Neve Chabad, and the group serves as somewhat of a platform for it (not sure to what extent anymore, but that's how it was when I left).

There is a Hebrew group, חבדניקיות מפטפטות, which may also be a good resource.

amother

Natural

Fri, Jun 05 2020, 8:40 am

Rappel wrote:

Well, we haven't been turned away yet. We must be that boring. Smile

But I agree - it's easy for an entrenched mazkirut to stagnate in its own power. It's something that bothers me and DH a lot - Jews should not be cutting down other Jews, in any context.

That's the plus of living in a larger yeshuv or a city. No one can turn you away.
And most important, the population is more diverse, so if you change down the road, or if your kids are non-conformists, you don't feel like the odd man out.
Of course some yeshuvim are laxer with their selection committee and will allow in a diverse group. But some are not, and I would think ten times before living in a place that would not let my best friend or my brother to live there. Or would not allow my child to live there (as an adult) if he became secular/Chabad/Breslov/etc.

amother

Wed, Jun 10 2020, 9:59 am

Thank you everyone for your feedback! I've been wanting to answer since Friday but got sick and wasn't up to it... So got to turn it all over in my mind instead.

To clarify, I didn't get the sense that Alon Shvut not accepting us would be due to an anti-Chabad bias as much as wanting to keep the yishuv according to it's original character. And I do understand that, especially if we are talking about a small town with limited housing. Not taking it personally. (Though I can't deny having had a few imaginary conversations in my mind where I let slip that my husband is in middle of getting his PhD...)

That said, I'm not sure if my information is 100% accurate. I spoke to someone else since I posted last week, familiar with the area, who didn't seem to think we wouldn't be ALLOWED to move in to Alon Shvut--she said no one would stop us from renting a house--but still, after talking to her I did recall our other options.

She seemed to think Tzur Hadassah (sending to school in Beitar) might be reasonable for us. It would definitely be convenient for the Beitar/Hadassah Ein Karem proximity. Not sure how we feel about being somewhere where there really are very few Chareidi/right-wing Torani/Chabad people and even the left-wing DL/modern Orthodox people are a pretty new and small presence, or even what it is really like there. I think what appeals to me in a place is actually diversity--totally chareidi (as in Beitar) scares me but in a funny way (maybe after living in Israel for a year and getting used to kids being able to play in the streets on Shabbos and make friends easily with all the neighbors) so does primarily chiloni. And there is the practical matter of where my husband could comfortably daven on Shabbos.

We are also revisiting the idea of Neve Daniel (hi, Cerulean!). Everyone I encounter from there seems to be very friendly and welcoming, and from what I hear we would be far from the only ones sending kids to the Chabad school in Beitar.

I would love more thoughts any of you have on any of these three places (or other ideas)... I am finding all the comments extremely helpful. Thanks for being kind as well as informative!