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Forum -> Chinuch, Education & Schooling
S/o the mispronounced words, SINGERS and nekudos



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amother
OP


 

Post Thu, Jun 04 2020, 7:32 am
It drives me crazy when singers don't put emphasis on correct part of word (mil'el, mil'ra) or have a segol sound instead of sh'va, shva nach, shiva na etc.

Do you know what I mean?

I feel that they should have researched the passuk they are singing. People learn from them.
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amother
OP


 

Post Thu, Jun 04 2020, 7:33 am
(My family thinks I'm crazy. But I am a sticker for kriyah. Can anyone relate?)
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amother
Pearl


 

Post Thu, Jun 04 2020, 7:35 am
The Rebetzin of my high school sure could.
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cbsp




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jun 04 2020, 7:55 am
Rabbi Reisman used this as a topic for one of his Navi shiurim.

I've been way more sensitive as a result. To that and the way the tune can clash with the meaning of the psukim being sung.

What I don't understand is why the younger grade Moros and Rebbeim don't use proper pronunciation for the basics (shema, bentching, etc) starting from a young age. I know the classic tunes/sing-song lend themselves to emphasis on the wrong syllables - so maybe it's time to change the tunes.

I remember there was an initiative in my high school to at least pay attentive to the proper shva na and shva nach pronunciation in krias shema - it was so so so hard to change a decade and a half of ingrained behavior. I watch my 6yo pronounce the words with ease while I still have to override my brain and tongue (and this was with a BY education from age 2.5).
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amother
Blonde


 

Post Thu, Jun 04 2020, 8:04 am
cbsp wrote:
Rabbi Reisman used this as a topic for one of his Navi shiurim.

I've been way more sensitive as a result. To that and the way the tune can clash with the meaning of the psukim being sung.

What I don't understand is why the younger grade Moros and Rebbeim don't use proper pronunciation for the basics (shema, bentching, etc) starting from a young age. I know the classic tunes/sing-song lend themselves to emphasis on the wrong syllables - so maybe it's time to change the tunes.

I remember there was an initiative in my high school to at least pay attentive to the proper shva na and shva nach pronunciation in krias shema - it was so so so hard to change a decade and a half of ingrained behavior. I watch my 6yo pronounce the words with ease while I still have to override my brain and tongue (and this was with a BY education from age 2.5).

I was shocked when my sons in primary stopped saying the first paragraph of shema.
The rebbe said he does this to try to make them forget their bad pronunciation habits. Later in the year he retracted it slowly. Line by line. With correct pronunciation.
He explained when you teach it without reading skills it will happen that they will mis pronounce it.
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pause




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jun 04 2020, 8:12 am
amother [ OP ] wrote:
(My family thinks I'm crazy. But I am a sticker for kriyah. Can anyone relate?)

Stickler Wink
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Chayalle




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jun 04 2020, 8:31 am
cbsp wrote:

I remember there was an initiative in my high school to at least pay attentive to the proper shva na and shva nach pronunciation in krias shema - it was so so so hard to change a decade and a half of ingrained behavior. I watch my 6yo pronounce the words with ease while I still have to override my brain and tongue (and this was with a BY education from age 2.5).


Except that there are differences in opinions (slight, but differences) regarding these. I remember that when my DD's learned Kriah in Bais Faiga in Lakewood, we were told it was "L'fi Shitas Ha'gra" and there were some rules that I was taught differently, in very dikduk-conscious schools.
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zaq




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jun 04 2020, 9:11 am
Totally.
Ok, sometimes "wrong" pronunciation is a matter of dialect. Booreech Attoo ElokEYEnee is wrongwrongwrong to an Israeli but it's rightrightright to a Galitzyaner.
Tauv Me-aud, rhymes with cloud, makes perfect sense to a Yekke who reads the Aufbau, and Tayve Me-ade, rhymes with gave a spade, is pure Litvak.

But sometimes a baal tefillah can't win either way, because the meter of Western music doesn't necessarily fit the meter of the Hebrew language. Let's take Hatikvah, which of course should be pronounced HatikVAH, not HaTIKvah, as an example. It's not liturgical Hebrew but that doesn't matter, the principle is the same:

Nefesh YeHUdi HO-omiiyah fits the meter of the music, kills the havarah.
Nefesh YehuDI HomiYAAAAH bows to the havarah but kills the meter and sounds too-too self-consciously Prissy Pedantic.

In recent years --for me "recent" means anything later than about 1974--there's been a movement to change the pronunciation of Hebrew names. Used to be that the accent almost never went on the last syllable of a name even or especially if it was also a word. SHIrah and ARyeh are people; shiRAH and arYEH are things. ShuLAmit, DAHvid, AVshalom. Today it's ShulaMIT, DahVID, AvshaLOM. Took some getting used to but now DAHvid sounds peculiar.
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amother
Blonde


 

Post Thu, Jun 04 2020, 9:15 am
Chayalle wrote:
Except that there are differences in opinions (slight, but differences) regarding these. I remember that when my DD's learned Kriah in Bais Faiga in Lakewood, we were told it was "L'fi Shitas Ha'gra" and there were some rules that I was taught differently, in very dikduk-conscious schools.


When I was in sixth grade I remember we edited the primary sidirim. We put in stickers and added marks to slightly change the pronunciation of some words to match how the school pronounced them.
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amother
Blonde


 

Post Thu, Jun 04 2020, 9:18 am
zaq wrote:






In recent years --for me "recent" means anything later than about 1974--there's been a movement to change the pronunciation of Hebrew names. Used to be that the accent almost never went on the last syllable of a name even or especially if it was also a word. SHIrah and ARyeh are people; shiRAH and arYEH are things. ShuLAmit, DAHvid, AVshalom. Today it's ShulaMIT, DahVID, AvshaLOM. Took some getting used to but now DAHvid sounds peculiar.


The sefardim in my neighborhood still use the strong accents on the start of the name. AHron, YOsef, MOshe, it’s almost like a different name. It’s interesting to hear the litbish kids butechering their perfectly normal names.
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