Can someone please help me understand

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Forum -> Inquiries & Offers -> Lakewood, Toms River & Jackson related Inquiries

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Chayalle

Wed, Jun 17 2020, 10:31 am

amother [ Smokey ] wrote:

Those of you saying that this is America, you don’t set the rules etc are unfortunately misguided. This is a Torah concept, not to bring down the standard in a neighborhood, not to be a trendsetter etc and Torah is what sets our rules. Unless that’s out of fashion too?

Then the people renting it should be machshiv those standards over money, and rent it out to those whose standards they are comfortable with.

I don't disagree with the sentiment you are expressing - I'm just saying how both sides are contributing factors.

amother

Smokey

Wed, Jun 17 2020, 10:36 am

Chayalle wrote:

Be machahiv for sure. But that’s sticky- it’s hard to tell when you meet a couple and it could be discrimination to turn them down. Ultimately It’s on the tenant, if they are frum jews, to take that responsibility.

Chayalle

Wed, Jun 17 2020, 10:42 am

I wonder if that is a psak Halacha. If I move to a neighborhood, in what areas do I have to keep to their standards?

If everyone lives simply and wears clothes from cheap stores and I am more well-to-do (I'm not. I'm just conjecturing here) must I buy my kids cheap clothes, or am I allowed to by nicer, better quality clothes since I can afford them and they will likely look nicer and last longer? Do I not get to decide my standard because others who moved here before me decided already?

Perhaps in areas of tznius the halacha might be different, but OP mentions both.

BTW - I used to live in a neighborhood where there was one family who was more makpid on certain aspects of tznius than everyone else. For example, his kids wore longer dresses and tights at a young age. He tried really hard to get everyone else to become more stringent and adopt his views.

I find it interesting that in Lakewood, alot of people have issues with what everyone else is doing rather than focusing on their own thing. It's something I've struggled to understand. Didn't grow up that way (grew up also with very frum standards, but my parents never focused on everyone else on the block. We were just told that this is how we do it, period.)

amother

Wed, Jun 17 2020, 11:44 am

Chayalle wrote:

I grew up in Flatbush, my block was different types and standards. Now that I live in Lakewood we moved to the block when my husband was still learning, like I said in the beginning I am not judging. My question was that if 95% percent is dressed a certain way and 5% moves to a basement for whatever reason there landlord rented to them. To also point out the 5 percent husbands are also learning for the first 2 years. Comes shabbas afternoon and she walks out to with her husband wearing a Shaitel down to her tush a bright red skirt a tight top, or evenn when she is talking to the neighbors you are literally being machshil every man that walks by you stand out. I am bothered, because these 5% know good and well I see men glaring!!! What do they need it for some self-esteem, like you are desperatefor men to stare at you( this 5% know that they stick out) like during the week when your just going into your car and not hanging around the block, do whatever you want.Friday shabbas Sunday just loosen up the dress a drop. Do you need to take a walk with a tight skirt and leggings?

I don't think this is klal yisroels biggest issue, more trying to understand there train of thought. What good feelings is there having men stare at you?

keym

Wed, Jun 17 2020, 11:55 am

It's an interesting conversation in Lakewood Developments.
I know mine had it.
We are a development with 45/50 houses, an HOA and a shul with a Rabbi that we all are required to pay a salary to. It's built into the development fees.
So in theory we have 50 similarly like minded families who jointly hired a Rabbi who decides Shul and development frumkeit rules.
But then you have tenants who rent who don't feel an obligation to listen to the Rav- he's not my Rav.
I'm not talking about tznius.
I'm talking about serving alcohol at a Kiddush, making a private earlier minyan, the rules of porch minyanim as it came up, and following the Rav's guidance on financial and practical disagreements- where sukkos can be built, parking, playgroups.
But these tenants who don't want to follow the rules and standards want a reserved seats in shul, the ability to make a Kiddush, etc.
It gets messy and political.

amother

Maroon

Wed, Jun 17 2020, 11:59 am

amother [ Smokey ] wrote:

Dina kmalchusa is laws of a country. We need to observe them- not to bring our level down to everything that’s allowed. Bringing down a neighborhood standard would probably fall under tznius, respect for holiness in an area, encouraging others to sin etc. although I’m pretty sure it’s delineated somewhere but I’m not learned enough to know where. There are pretty clear parameters of tznius which many unfortunately choose not to follow.

I find this so discouraging - people are more willing to respect their non-jewish neighbors than their frum ones. Every will have their own din vecheshbon to answer to but I find this so sad.

I imagine it falls under minhag hamakom. But someone could probably argue that it only applies within the confines of Lakewood, not surrounding cities.

amother

Babypink

Wed, Jun 17 2020, 12:05 pm

Neighborhoods change. People come and go. Plenty of Jewish neighborhoods were previously not predominantly Jewish, and vice versa. Same is true for the micro-cultural distinctions.

amother

Wed, Jun 17 2020, 12:09 pm

amother [ Babypink ] wrote:

Neighborhoods change. People come and go. Plenty of Jewish neighborhoods were previously not predominantly Jewish, and vice versa. Same is true for the micro-cultural distinctions.

Are you trying to answer my question or just giving your thoughts on life?
Your thoughts are correct I don't see how that's addressing my question.

amother

Babypink

Wed, Jun 17 2020, 12:18 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Are you trying to answer my question or just giving your thoughts on life?
Your thoughts are correct I don't see how that's addressing my question.

I'm saying it's normal for people to move where they want. Neighborhoods are not set in stone.

amother

Amethyst

Wed, Jun 17 2020, 12:22 pm

Wow, that sounds complicated and annoying that a whole neighborhood can hire a Rav to set standards, and the basement tenants dont have to listen. It sounds like the tenants should sign a rental contract that includes an obligation to uphold the neighborhood standards and follow all guidelines set by the neighborhood Rav!

amother

Wed, Jun 17 2020, 12:23 pm

amother [ Babypink ] wrote:

I'm saying it's normal for people to move where they want. Neighborhoods are not set in stone.

Are we going in circles? I know what your saying, did you read my post? How are you answering?

amother

Natural

Wed, Jun 17 2020, 3:20 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

They are people who didn't come to Lakewood for the same reasons you or I did, but they need a place to live.

I happen to have a relative who has a child who is currently OTD. He or she (being deliberately vague) married someone like their self, B"H they are both Jewish and on the same page, and Hashem will help them find their way back. They moved to Lakewood, of all places, because they found jobs here. And they rent an apartment, because like all human beings, they need a roof over their heads.

Of course this is not what you are discussing, but I would assume that there are all sorts of young couples, holding at various levels of frum, tznius, etc...looking for a place to live. If they find someone to rent them an apartment that is size/price in their range, they will take it. They aren't looking to conform to your lifestyle. They just need a place to live that works for them.

They aren't thinking that men are staring at them. They are thinking they are dressing in a way that makes them feel pretty.

DrMom

Thu, Jun 18 2020, 12:53 am

Just wondering if you would be okay with a landlord refusing to rent to frum Jews because he did not want to change the character of his neighborhood.

I'm not really sure where the case being discussed in this thread would falls w.r.t. landord's rights vs housing discrimination.

amother

Pumpkin

Thu, Jun 18 2020, 1:12 am

מה טובו אהלך יעקב

We aren't supposed to look at what others are doing. It's a source of bracha from Hashem.

OP, it sounds like you are most upset by men (your dh, perchance) glaring. That is on the men. They have a chiyuv not to stare. The chiyuv isn't on your neighbor.

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