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Black Lives Matter article in Baltimore Jewish Life
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Fox




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 01 2020, 12:51 pm
princessleah wrote:
For those of you who believe the biggest problem is children born out of wedlock, could you please explain, how if men and women in these communities got married and then had children, how that would make the public schools better, increase graduation rates, increase employment, and decrease incarceration rates?

Thanks!

There is an old saying that, "when the white man catches a cold, the black man catches pneumonia."

In other words, any disruption or negative trend will hit black communities harder and faster than white communities -- so-called "white privilege." But the fact is that out-of-wedlock births and declining rates of marriage are affecting white communities in ways that they've been affecting black communities for a while.

I strongly recommend reading Charles Murray's Coming Apart. It demonstrates statistically the correlation between having fathers in the home -- and even just having men in the community -- on children's well-being in a number of areas.

Here's one statistic from the book that stuck with me: a poor black child growing up with his married, biological parents has a better chance of successful outcomes as an adult (graduating from HS, avoiding arrest, being employed) than a white middle-class child growing up with a never-married mother.

Even just having other fathers around seems to make a difference; communities where there are more married men in the zip code have better outcomes even if a child lives with his never-married mother.

Why is this the case? We don't precisely know. But obviously the presence of fathers in the home or even just in a community leads to better results. And it's not a matter of income.
___________________________

This is why some of us are a bit fixated on repairing the damage done by the 1994 Violent Crimes Act. These laws had the unintended effect of locking up an enormous number of black men. Few of these men were innocent tzaddikim.

But we've learned painfully since then that, statistically speaking, it's better for a community to have grown men who aren't exactly law-abiding citizens than it is to have no men at all.
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amother
Smokey


 

Post Wed, Jul 01 2020, 1:14 pm
Or in other words it does not make sense - perhaps it’s more of a transfer of wealth tax or something— though Mr. Johnson is clearly a capitalist and I believe has good intentions— though like rewarding threat and violence with appeasement only encourages poor behavior and results
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naturalmom5




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 01 2020, 1:21 pm
Fox wrote:
There is an old saying that, "when the white man catches a cold, the black man catches pneumonia."

In other words, any disruption or negative trend will hit black communities harder and faster than white communities -- so-called "white privilege." But the fact is that out-of-wedlock births and declining rates of marriage are affecting white communities in ways that they've been affecting black communities for a while.

I strongly recommend reading Charles Murray's Coming Apart. It demonstrates statistically the correlation between having fathers in the home -- and even just having men in the community -- on children's well-being in a number of areas.

Here's one statistic from the book that stuck with me: a poor black child growing up with his married, biological parents has a better chance of successful outcomes as an adult (graduating from HS, avoiding arrest, being employed) than a white middle-class child growing up with a never-married mother.

Even just having other fathers around seems to make a difference; communities where there are more married men in the zip code have better outcomes even if a child lives with his never-married mother.

Why is this the case? We don't precisely know. But obviously the presence of fathers in the home or even just in a community leads to better results. And it's not a matter of income.
___________________________

This is why some of us are a bit fixated on repairing the damage done by the 1994 Violent Crimes Act. These laws had the unintended effect of locking up an enormous number of black men. Few of these men were innocent tzaddikim.

But we've learned painfully since then that, statistically speaking, it's better for a community to have grown men who aren't exactly law-abiding citizens than it is to have no men at all.



Maybe that explains why our grandparents in the Lower East Side , with no safety net , and no programs at all, no FS, WIC, HUD etc..., living in greater poverty than the inner city today, mostly thrived.
The overwhelming majority of their children moved to the suburbs..
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PinkFridge




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 01 2020, 1:42 pm
amother [ Smokey ] wrote:
Robert Johnson the first US black billionaire owner of BET was on the radio this morning and he said this same argument about intact families giving benefit to the whole family especially the children.

That said he was also talking about giving reparations of $360,000 to each black person in the US because of past slavery and compared it to Holocaust reparations (!). He said to raise the money by charging white people like $11,000 per person or family unclear...

He comes across as a likable intelligent person but this left me :O

no clue as to how this could even be traced....who was a slave owner....who was a slave...but he said it was for the good of all in the name of forgiveness...

amazing what has gained traction these days

would be quite a precedent ...reparations to every group and more whenever deemed "necessary"....cannot even imagine

Suddenly Mount Rushmore is deemed racist and anti native american...funny how none of this was ever addressed during previous administrations and Obamas two terms.


The idea behind everyone being involved in reparations, even if our ancestors weren't in the country then, is white privilege. When our ancestors did come, by virtue of being white (sorry, Imamothers of color, just saying, yes, Jews are seen as white) we slid into the whole white virtue advantaged community. So we're complicit too.

You could probably check this out: Two weeks ago, NPR's On Point program featured Michael Eric Dyson one day, and the next a politician who spoke about reparations. (And that program IIR also featured the Rosewood story. Chilling.)
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amother
Lawngreen


 

Post Wed, Jul 01 2020, 2:05 pm
naturalmom5 wrote:
Maybe that explains why our grandparents in the Lower East Side , with no safety net , and no programs at all, no FS, WIC, HUD etc..., living in greater poverty than the inner city today, mostly thrived.
The overwhelming majority of their children moved to the suburbs..


The vast majority of people who lived in the Lower East Side sadly have non-Jewish grandchildren.
Some have black grandchildren, some Chinese, some Hispanic.
A disproportionate have gay grandsons raising children from surrogate mothers, Lesbian granddaughters raising children from male donors.....
An unusual hi percentage have children espousing liberalism and hatred of Judeo-Christian Western values,
They are destroying the moral fabric of humans in Western countries. They are raising a generation of people who want to turn this country into atheist Venezuala.
They hate you and the chassid in urban New York equally and sympathize with the Palestinian cause.

Check out the cemeteries in Greater New York. Put in those names into geni.com.
Viola, that is what shows up.
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amother
Lawngreen


 

Post Wed, Jul 01 2020, 2:15 pm
amother [ Babyblue ] wrote:
So you think it isnt completely obnoxious to equate a luxury of the middle to upper class=summer camps with things like a jogger getting killed because they were in an all white neighborhood or getting pulled over not because you were speeding or your plates were flagged but only because your car was too nice for your look? Its comparible to you whining about cleaning lady problems to someone who doesnt have cash to buy supper for their kids. That is very insensitive. It isnt saying anyone agrees with Cuomo's decision to have some sensitivity.

Its not so extreme. You can support the normal every day good people who want to be treated fairly without buying the whole package of thugs and politically orchestrated mayhem.

The looters and rabble rousers are overwhelming majority young men from the projects who get into trouble all too often, protest or not. Not even close to a fraction of the people.

And that has nothing to do with the punishing police push, that is the liberal political agenda taking advantage trying to purchase votes.

Chasidic kid holding up signs begging for summer camp in Williamsburg, Boro Park NY is not a luxury.
Chasidic camps cost a fraction of the cost of the camps you are thinking about.
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amother
Rose


 

Post Wed, Jul 01 2020, 2:18 pm
PinkFridge wrote:
The idea behind everyone being involved in reparations, even if our ancestors weren't in the country then, is white privilege. When our ancestors did come, by virtue of being white (sorry, Imamothers of color, just saying, yes, Jews are seen as white) we slid into the whole white virtue advantaged community. So we're complicit too.

You could probably check this out: Two weeks ago, NPR's On Point program featured Michael Eric Dyson one day, and the next a politician who spoke about reparations. (And that program IIR also featured the Rosewood story. Chilling.)


Do you really think that Jews have white privilege? Yes we’re “white,” but we have also been discriminated against in this country.
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Laiya




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 01 2020, 2:18 pm
amother [ Lawngreen ] wrote:
The vast majority of people who lived in the Lower East Side sadly have non-Jewish grandchildren.
Some have black grandchildren, some Chinese, some Hispanic.
A disproportionate have gay grandsons raising children from surrogate mothers, Lesbian granddaughters raising children from male donors.....
An unusual hi percentage have children espousing liberalism and hatred of Judeo-Christian Western values,
They are destroying the moral fabric of humans in Western countries. They are raising a generation of people who want to turn this country into atheist Venezuala.
They hate you and the chassid in urban New York equally and sympathize with the Palestinian cause.

Check out the cemeteries in Greater New York. Put in those names into geni.com.
Viola, that is what shows up.


Are you saying this is because they lived in the LES?
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naturalmom5




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 01 2020, 2:37 pm
amother [ Lawngreen ] wrote:
The vast majority of people who lived in the Lower East Side sadly have non-Jewish grandchildren.
Some have black grandchildren, some Chinese, some Hispanic.
A disproportionate have gay grandsons raising children from surrogate mothers, Lesbian granddaughters raising children from male donors.....
An unusual hi percentage have children espousing liberalism and hatred of Judeo-Christian Western values,
They are destroying the moral fabric of humans in Western countries. They are raising a generation of people who want to turn this country into atheist Venezuala.
They hate you and the chassid in urban New York equally and sympathize with the Palestinian cause.

Check out the cemeteries in Greater New York. Put in those names into geni.com.
Viola, that is what shows up.


You are 100% right

I never said they were tzadikim, or religious or even conservative

I said that by and large they are educated productive members of soceity..

All of Beverly Hills is what you are describing, but they are still educated and affluent, not inner city poor
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ora_43




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jul 02 2020, 2:15 am
amother [ Purple ] wrote:
Look, every life is important but these numbers are so small that it silly to think that this is a legitimate cause.

The difference between this thread and the Maimonides thread is stark, and depressing.

Police force Jewish family to abide by hospital rules = anti-Semitism; they would never have done that to black people.

Unarmed black person choked to death by police = come on, it was just one person, it's silly to attach any importance to that.

How many unarmed people do you expect police officers to kill? What number is big enough that it suddenly becomes meaningful?

We're willing to discuss anti-Semitism WAY before it gets to the stage of Jews being choked to death in the middle of the street - shutting down camps is worthy of protest, police going after Jewish kids for completely ignoring social distancing orders is anti-Semitism, police in Israel causing accidental injury to hareidi bystanders during a violent riot is evidence of police hostility to hareidim...

But unarmed black men suspected of minor financial crimes being choked to death in the street, that's not a reason to talk about racism. A 12-year-old black child being shot to death on a playground, that only happened once, let's wait until it happens at least 10 times before we decide to take action. A black man hunted down and murdered while jogging and his murderers walking around free, a black woman shot by police in her own home while she slept - no need to protest that, not yet.

A lot of posters here like to play the "if we were black they wouldn't treat us this way" card. Let's turn that around for a minute. If police killed one yeshiva bachur - just one - if they choked one yeshiva bachur to death slowly, over the course of several minutes, while he begged them to stop, are you going to tell me that Jews would just sit back and take it? Are you going to try to tell me for a single second that there wouldn't be riots?
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shoshanim999




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jul 02 2020, 3:34 am
ora_43 wrote:
The difference between this thread and the Maimonides thread is stark, and depressing.

Police force Jewish family to abide by hospital rules = anti-Semitism; they would never have done that to black people.

Unarmed black person choked to death by police = come on, it was just one person, it's silly to attach any importance to that.

How many unarmed people do you expect police officers to kill? What number is big enough that it suddenly becomes meaningful?

We're willing to discuss anti-Semitism WAY before it gets to the stage of Jews being choked to death in the middle of the street - shutting down camps is worthy of protest, police going after Jewish kids for completely ignoring social distancing orders is anti-Semitism, police in Israel causing accidental injury to hareidi bystanders during a violent riot is evidence of police hostility to hareidim...

But unarmed black men suspected of minor financial crimes being choked to death in the street, that's not a reason to talk about racism. A 12-year-old black child being shot to death on a playground, that only happened once, let's wait until it happens at least 10 times before we decide to take action. A black man hunted down and murdered while jogging and his murderers walking around free, a black woman shot by police in her own home while she slept - no need to protest that, not yet.

A lot of posters here like to play the "if we were black they wouldn't treat us this way" card. Let's turn that around for a minute. If police killed one yeshiva bachur - just one - if they choked one yeshiva bachur to death slowly, over the course of several minutes, while he begged them to stop, are you going to tell me that Jews would just sit back and take it? Are you going to try to tell me for a single second that there wouldn't be riots?



The point wasn't that a small amount of lives isn't important. Which would imply that at a particular number it would become important.
The point was that the number is low enough and comparable to unarmed white deaths at the hands of police, that it doesn't demonstrate systemic racism. I can google and find the names of unarmed white people killed by police and their circumstances would be equally horrific. In the case of George Floyd, the cop was immediately fired, and brought up on murder charges.
If cops c'vs murdered a single yeshiva bocher I'd like to think we'd make a big deal about it. No, we wouldn't riot and loot. We wouldn't smash storefronts and assault store owners attempting to protect their property. We wouldn't burn down private businesses that employ us. We would demand justice and move on.
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southernbubby




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jul 02 2020, 4:31 am
Ok but there were articles about Jews who viewed the closing of shuls and yeshivas due to the pandemic as just another attempt of secular governments to force Jews to give up Torah because governments have done that before. They resisted and davened in basements or defied laws because that's what their grandparents did.
Blacks are not responding to a single incident but to centuries of abuse that they were helpless to prevent and now they are galvanized to fight.
All the same, people who want to stay safe may flee cities with decreased police presence and move to places of little interest to Black people, leaving cities to crumble or become gentrified. Blacks may lose more than they gain.
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PinkFridge




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jul 02 2020, 5:26 am
amother [ Rose ] wrote:
Do you really think that Jews have white privilege? Yes we’re “white,” but we have also been discriminated against in this country.


I thought I made it clear. This is what they're saying, and it's chilling.
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PinkFridge




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jul 02 2020, 5:27 am
shoshanim999 wrote:
The point wasn't that a small amount of lives isn't important. Which would imply that at a particular number it would become important.
The point was that the number is low enough and comparable to unarmed white deaths at the hands of police, that it doesn't demonstrate systemic racism. I can google and find the names of unarmed white people killed by police and their circumstances would be equally horrific. In the case of George Floyd, the cop was immediately fired, and brought up on murder charges.
If cops c'vs murdered a single yeshiva bocher I'd like to think we'd make a big deal about it. No, we wouldn't riot and loot. We wouldn't smash storefronts and assault store owners attempting to protect their property. We wouldn't burn down private businesses that employ us. We would demand justice and move on.


And if anyone got out of hand our leadership, our rabbanim, would unanimously excoriate them.
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shoshanim999




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jul 02 2020, 5:31 am
southernbubby wrote:
Ok but there were articles about Jews who viewed the closing of shuls and yeshivas due to the pandemic as just another attempt of secular governments to force Jews to give up Torah because governments have done that before. They resisted and davened in basements or defied laws because that's what their grandparents did.
Blacks are not responding to a single incident but to centuries of abuse that they were helpless to prevent and now they are galvanized to fight.
All the same, people who want to stay safe may flee cities with decreased police presence and move to places of little interest to Black people, leaving cities to crumble or become gentrified. Blacks may lose more than they gain.



There isn't a single law in this country that is prohibitive towards black people. Of course there's still racism and there always will be. I don't think the thousands of black people protesting today are thinking about slavery from 150 years ago or systemic racism from before the civil rights movement in the 1960's.

The reason for the outrage now among blacks is because they are being told that today, in 2020, the white man and police are holding them back. Black leaders say this, and BLM says this as well. Al Sharpton said at the George Floyd funeral that Floyd's death is symbolic of what is going on in today's world. The black man is trying to rise up and the white man has their foot on our throats holding us down. Michelle Obama didn't use the same strong language but also said that racism is holding the black community down TODAY. The first thing you see on the BLM website is pictures of blacks that have been killed by police within the last few years. Don't be fooled. The message is clear. Blacks are told that the problems they face today is as a result of the inherently racist white people TODAY.
And this is why I'm very pessimistic about the outlook for change going forward. The black community and their leaders don't preach, rally, and protest about the single motherhood rate, or about that black children have the lowest literacy rates in the U.S. which leads to poverty and crime. Instead they talk about the white man and how the problems plaguing their community are not their fault. Nothing will change or get better this way. This situation will only deteriorate as black crime and poverty continue to be largely ignored.
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southernbubby




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jul 02 2020, 6:14 am
shoshanim999 wrote:
There isn't a single law in this country that is prohibitive towards black people. Of course there's still racism and there always will be. I don't think the thousands of black people protesting today are thinking about slavery from 150 years ago or systemic racism from before the civil rights movement in the 1960's.

The reason for the outrage now among blacks is because they are being told that today, in 2020, the white man and police are holding them back. Black leaders say this, and BLM says this as well. Al Sharpton said at the George Floyd funeral that Floyd's death is symbolic of what is going on in today's world. The black man is trying to rise up and the white man has their foot on our throats holding us down. Michelle Obama didn't use the same strong language but also said that racism is holding the black community down TODAY. The first thing you see on the BLM website is pictures of blacks that have been killed by police within the last few years. Don't be fooled. The message is clear. Blacks are told that the problems they face today is as a result of the inherently racist white people TODAY.
And this is why I'm very pessimistic about the outlook for change going forward. The black community and their leaders don't preach, rally, and protest about the single motherhood rate, or about that black children have the lowest literacy rates in the U.S. which leads to poverty and crime. Instead they talk about the white man and how the problems plaguing their community are not their fault. Nothing will change or get better this way. This situation will only deteriorate as black crime and poverty continue to be largely ignored.


I used to have a Black neighbor who was active in a church that honored men who paid child support. They are making small internal efforts to make their constituents behave responsibly the same way that the frum community has fought child molestation and domestic abuse from within the community but we still have a lot of other issues to conquer.
It is hard for someone who doesn't know any married and intact families to know why or how to form one. There are now 3 generations of single mothers whose families are comprised of half siblings. It works about as well to tell them to change their family structure as it does to tell frum Jews to change behaviors that lead to poverty and dysfunction.
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amother
Smokey


 

Post Thu, Jul 02 2020, 6:22 am
No we do not feel we are complicit in so called "white privilege".

And what about the many whites and blacks in the North who fought and died to abolish slavery.

Revisionist history aint our bag.

Regardless of nuances and differing opinions we are not complicit in that type of argument about "white privilege" and where it leads and not interested in setting a precedent which will go nowhere fast. Far better effective ways to address legitimate issues that need help financial and otherwise.

AOC an open and admitted "socialist Marxist" already made the argument that hispanics are black. Whatever that means.

This is a salvo in a bigger picture. With a bigger overarching agenda. Not playing pawn. No thanks. Today the "palestinians" are already calling themselves black and mounting "days of rage" demonstrations all across the US.

And all the illegal and legal immigrants are also going to get handed a big payout by virtue of their skin tone? Can you/we afford that amount of money even you believed it would help redress a country's historical wrong? Are all countries colonial or with slavery and the like in their past going to do this? Are land and population transfers next?
Should muslim and all European countries pay reparations for throwing Jews out of their countries? for persecuting us?
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southernbubby




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jul 02 2020, 6:38 am
Efforts to desegregate schools have failed in most places so those single mothers who can't manage their own lives are not exactly chairing the PTA. As a result, their schools stink.
The problem starts in the lousy schools and proceeds from there. Then, of course, whites in good school districts get the blame. It's the haves and have nots but whites don't want their kids bussed to those schools in order to get some better educated kids there. Every white kid suddenly developed motion sickness and bladder issues in response to bussing. Busy mothers didn't want to attend PTA in dangerous neighborhoods and Catholic School attendance skyrocketed even though the students were not Catholic.
Basically whites and blacks grow up in different worlds that are not separate but equal. Their lives are launched on different trajectories.
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princessleah




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jul 02 2020, 7:04 am
What I was trying to convey above, which only Fox seemed to pick up on, is that magically dropping fathers in to families is not going to solve all the problems.

Think about WHY fathers are missing. The movie 13th on Netflix elucidates this progression very clearly. The system is stacked against black men. Slavery gets abolished. Jim Crow laws are in place. And alongside this, the 13th amendment states: "Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction."

So, what's the best way to keep your free labor? Large-scale imprisonment of black men. Jim Crow gets overturned, segregation gets overturned.. here comes the 90's crime bill. Cocaine, that's a high-class, dignified, white gentleman's drug. But crack? Crack is whack. Crack is scary. Crack brings crime and violence. Better lock these guys up. (p.s. it's no more addictive than regular cocaine) So where are all the fathers? In jail, awaiting trial, in a backed up justice system, not being able to afford bail, they can take a plea deal but then they're subject to a 3-strike penalty.

The neighborhoods may be impoverished, people don't have good credit and rent apartments, few people are paying property taxes so the schools don't have good funding, so the education is lagging behind their white peers. The Jewish kids in the neighborhood to go private schools. The charter schools pull the truly motivated ones away.

I could go on and on. It is very difficult to break the cycle of poverty, and not just for a specific race, but the history of racism against black Americans is very long and very entrenched. And yes, the north fought against slavery in the civil war, but I grew up in Boston, and there was incredible racism there as well, don't kid yourself.
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shoshanim999




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jul 02 2020, 7:08 am
southernbubby wrote:
Efforts to desegregate schools have failed in most places so those single mothers who can't manage their own lives are not exactly chairing the PTA. As a result, their schools stink.
The problem starts in the lousy schools and proceeds from there. Then, of course, whites in good school districts get the blame. It's the haves and have nots but whites don't want their kids bussed to those schools in order to get some better educated kids there. Every white kid suddenly developed motion sickness and bladder issues in response to bussing. Busy mothers didn't want to attend PTA in dangerous neighborhoods and Catholic School attendance skyrocketed even though the students were not Catholic.
Basically whites and blacks grow up in different worlds that are not separate but equal. Their lives are launched on different trajectories.
[u]


The problem does NOT start in poor schools. It starts from the fact that around 72% of black babies are born to single mother homes. Those children are exponentially more likely to dropout of school, not know how to read, become poor, commit crimes and end up in jail.
In fact, there have been studies that a black child born into a 2 parent home is more likely to reach middle class than a white child born into a 2 parent home.

As a side point, most of these poor schools you speak of are in districts with all black and democratic leadership. In some instances the city council is 100% black. It's not as if white people are making poor decisions holding them back.
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