AG Rules Women Can Take Rabbanut Tests

amother

Papaya

Wed, Jul 01 2020, 11:27 pm

I did not read every comment, so forgive me if someone already made this point.

In terms of the political aspect or the aspect of women being able to take a test and qualify for higher pay- that sounds good to me.

My concern is similar to what some other people were saying, but with a different reason. Having women be in rabbinical positions in a way, like a yoetzet halacha, doesn't bother me. What scares me is the whole narrative that women have to do everything that men do in order to be equal. And that scares me because if you are going to stay orthodox and keep halacha, eventually you are going to hit a brick wall. You want a woman's minyan, sure. You want a chazzanit, sure. But halachically, women cannot make a bracha on reading the Torah. So there, you're stuck. Either you stop keeping halacha OR you stay within halacha but now if girls are being raised that we have to be like men to be equal, then you're left with- Torah discriminates against women and thinks we're NOT equal because we can't make a bracha on the Torah. And there are other examples like that. Again, I don't care if you have a women's minyan with a woman rabbanit and a chazanit. I worry about the narrative that says we have to be like men, and what the end result of that is. Of course, not everyone who goes to a yoetzet halacha believes in this narrative. But for those that do, or for the girls who grow up with this, it's scary.
I want to teach my girls that we don't have to be like men to be valued and equal and important in Judaism.

amother

Gray

Thu, Jul 02 2020, 12:16 am

I would like to post a protest to the denigration of the Rabbanut tests.

Obviously, I don't know banana123 or her dh, maybe they are brilliant and genius many times above average.

The Rabbanut tests are HARD. They demand a tremendous amount of knowledge, from the mishna, gemara, rishonim, achronim, and many many later poskim.

Many smart knowledgable people , who have learned torah their whole life, study for months and sometimes years in order to do well on the tests.

amother

Magenta

Thu, Jul 02 2020, 2:32 am

Rappel wrote:

Ah, but I do want to sit the tests. There's the rub.

I actually agree with a lot of what you've said on this thread.

But I don't trust ITIM to do this in a way that the Rabbanut will truly accept, a way that will open public religious roles for women so they can do good.

I think these organizations are making a mediafest to push their own anti-Rabbanut agenda, and that means that the women and girls whom need this will never get to sit these exams. I cannot tell you how frustrating that is to me.

I've been wondering about this, Rappel. You don't like the way the organizations are going about getting this approved, and you don't like the 'mediafest'.

But if they HADN'T done anything, do you really think the Rabbanut would decide on their own, hey, it's time we let women sit for these exams too?

IMO there is no chance that would happen. The Rabbanut is a very conservative organization, dominated by the chareidi and chardal sector, with very conservative opinions regarding women.

You say the women and girls who need these exams now 'will never get to sit' for them. I still don't understand why not, if access is given to all. But in any case - if the 'feminists' hadn't done anything - no woman at all would ever get to sit for these exams. They didn't ruin it for the rest of us - there was nothing to ruin, no plan to let women in.

shabbatiscoming

Thu, Jul 02 2020, 3:25 am

amother [ Papaya ] wrote:

In terms of reading the torah etc, have you heard of women's minyanim? These are fully halachic and for the women who want to still live a fully halachic life AND read from the torah, this is how they do that.
I also dont think that most of the women who are learning to be, for example yoatzot halacha etc are doing so so they can be like men. They want to be able to do things that have no issur in halacha that men are also doing. Thats different. These women are not wanting to start donning talit and tefilin etc.
They want to be able to learn to the same extent as men, not be them or equal to them, just be able to learn like them.
I sort of see this as one step further than sara schneirer. Before her, females did not learn torah at all. Now that they do, some women want to take it a step further because they love learning and love what they are learning and want to be allowed to learn and show something for that.

amother

Linen

Thu, Jul 02 2020, 7:46 am

amother [ Papaya ] wrote:

How can you teach them that if you just admitted the girls are not equal in Judaism.

amother

Magenta

Thu, Jul 02 2020, 8:10 am

Success10 wrote:

Different roles doesn't mean they don't have equal value. I think it's really sad the way many of today's women don't embrace their divinely beautiful role in Judaism, as though there's something better out there.

I think there's a debate over what our divinely beautiful role is, and whether it changes over the years.

Even in the right wing world there isn't consensus over this (is it ideal to be the main breadwinner while simultaneously having a child every year? Or is it better to be a SAHM while dh works?)

I think there is room for more than one ideal path, and if there are women who feel drawn to learning, then why not? It isn't innately 'unfeminine' or unwomanly to learn.

amother

Papaya

Thu, Jul 02 2020, 11:12 am

amother [ Linen ] wrote:

How can you teach them that if you just admitted the girls are not equal in Judaism.

You just proved my point.

I believe women are equal to men in Judaism and that equality does not mean doing the same things as men. And vice versa by the way- men are equal to women because equality does not mean doing the same thing as women.

If you believe that you have to do the same things in order to be equal, by default you will either have to break halacha or conclude that Torah discriminates against women and holds women as less than.

Again, if you want to learn gemara because you love learning and it's holy and you want to become closer to Hashem, by all means! But if you want to learn gemara because men do- well, that's dangerous.

CiCi

Thu, Jul 02 2020, 11:25 am

No one answered my question of what women would do with this degree. It seems to me that it is about serving in the capacity as a rabbi, in that case this is about women becoming "rabbis". This is dangerous, it is not Orthodox, it is Conservative Judaism at the very best, and heading on the road towards Reformism.

In halacha and our mesorah it is very clear in the differentiation of the roles between the genders. The blurring of our roles leads to the lose of identity and direction as we see in the secular world with the idea of "trans" where they want to erase their real gender identity because they have never realized that they have a particular role they must fulfill. We as Jewish women have our roles clearly defined. That doesn't mean that a man must never babysit or do laundry and it also doesn't mean that women may never learn Torah. It does mean that we must understand our priorities and our roles and goals.

A woman cannot pasken halacha and that is the point of taking this test, that those who pass it should be able to serve in the capacity as rabbis. This is not learning lishmu, this is about serving the yetzer hora.

Last edited by CiCi on Thu, Jul 02 2020, 11:44 am; edited 1 time in total

amother

Pearl

Thu, Jul 02 2020, 11:32 am

The point of taking the test isn't to pasken halacha, it's to demonstrate knowledge. It's an objective standard.

ETA As it stands now, women who take the exams will take them through the ministry of education. There's absolutely no attempt to make this about semicha. It's certifying expertise is certain areas and will allow women to use the tests as an alternative to a B.A.

The biggest winners here could be charedi girls who don't have bagrut degrees and have trouble getting into universities. They would be able to get jobs teaching limudei kodesh in institutions that pay more for degree holders.

banana123

Thu, Jul 02 2020, 11:51 am

nylon wrote:

It's not a degree per se. And it doesn't make them rabbis because it doesn't confer semicha by itself.

It's about being able to access jobs and get the extra salary points.

And not all (Orthodox) authorities agree with your blanket view that a woman cannot pasken halacha. They rule that she may answer a shaila which is asked to her, and the person asking is accepting her authority. Serara is an issue when her authority isn't voluntary.

Don't worry. The next suit, after a woman has done enough tests for the rabbanut, will be that they cannot refuse to examine/ interview her for smicha, because she has done everything everyone else testing has done, and therefore deserves to be interviewed like them and if she passes to receive the title "rabbi."

It's about 15-20 years away. But Kolech (or whoever) will get there. Step by step.

Success10

Thu, Jul 02 2020, 12:01 pm

banana123 wrote:

Yup. That's the end goal. Hashem Yishmor.

CiCi

Thu, Jul 02 2020, 12:12 pm

nylon wrote:

Soon there will be a lasws that semicha must be granted to women as well because otherwise it will be discrimination...

And I'm asking again, as I did before, in what capacity and what type of employment would someone with such a degree serve or work in?

Arguing over specific halachas of women paskening halacha is not the point of the direction where this is heading, but the entire idea and premise of women rabbis is against what a Jewish women is about and that's where this seems to be heading. Don't forget according to halacha a man may have five wives and there are many other halachas that are allowed "according to the Torah".

Comapring this to Bais Yaacovs opening before the war, as many here are doing, is not the correct comparison as the difference is the role of the women stayed the same with the opening of Bais Yaacovs because they simply enrich the girls with knowledge to strengthen their conviction in being a bas Yisroel, role which has stayed the same through the ages. Taking these tests is about changing in the role of a Jewish woman to a "more modern" definition of in what capicities and roles women should serve in. This is not a new phenomenon, we have all seen where these roads of trying to change mesorah always lead to...

amother

Pearl

Thu, Jul 02 2020, 12:18 pm

CiCi wrote:

And I'm asking again, as I did before, in what capacity and what type of employment would someone with such a degree serve or work in?

She can teach. Our daughters can have teachers who really know their stuff. Rather than have the immodest situation of having rabbis teaching seminary girls - a situation which has not always had positive results - we can have seminaries staffed by learned women. I would think that such a scenario would appeal to women in right wing communities.

Success10

Thu, Jul 02 2020, 12:21 pm

amother [ Pearl ] wrote:

I've never heard of a seminary that requires a Rabbanut certification from it's female teachers.

No one said women can't learn. There are also many Judaic Studies degrees available to women. Why do they specifically need to learn through a semicha exam?

CiCi

Thu, Jul 02 2020, 12:22 pm

sequoia wrote:

In practice, there is no polygamy in Judaism anymore. European Jews gave it up 1000 years ago. MENA Jews gave it up when coming to Israel.

Not sure why you’re bringing it up or what relevance it has.

It was in answer to quoting of halacha which was going down the road of "if women could pasken halacha because of halacha." I simply pointed to one example, out of a thousand, where quoting actual halacha does not make it ok in practice. In actual practice of halacha, there are many considerations like mesorah and das Yisroel, etc

amother

Pearl

Thu, Jul 02 2020, 12:28 pm

Success10 wrote:

Sigh. Because these exams can't be dismissed as veibishe zachen, not serious stuff. It's easy to wave off a degree from Bnos Kartuffel as not being serious. A woman who has passed the rabbanut exams has displayed her bona fides.

On the other side, there are women who, for whatever reason, don't want to or cannot go to university. So these exams give them the opportunity to show their stuff.

Seminaries do not yet require this certification, but it certainly stands out as a qualification. Standards in school are higher than when our mothers and grandmothers went to school. They continue to improve. And that's a good thing.