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Do you consider yourself a Zionist?
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nanny24/7




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jul 02 2020, 7:02 am
sequoia wrote:
“Development and protection.” As opposed to destruction. Yup, literally what I said.

You in your frum worlds have no idea of the hatred out there — in schools, colleges, universities, organizations — for the existence of Israel in any form. Before you declare yourselves anti-Zionists, sit in on a few lectures in the Middle Eastern department in Columbia. Trust me, you’ll suddenly find yourselves defending Israel and its Jewish founders — yes, even the secular ones. Or you’ll just cry from the pure unadulterated hatred.

Not in the same setting as a Columbia class, but have been exposed to just such unadulterated hatred.
I also have befriended some Muslim arabs (each from various different venues) who immigrated from anti-Israel countries in the Middle East and they all told me they wouldn't dare tell any of their friends or family they ever spoke to me or they would be "dead meat" for ever having been civil to a Jew. If I offered to meet for coffee the response was "I would love that, but you know I can't be caught dead having coffee with a Jew, so what can I do?"
Sigh.
Yes this is in Brooklyn, NY.
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LovesHashem




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jul 02 2020, 8:07 am
amother [ Linen ] wrote:
It's simply not true that in times of old, only half the men went to battle. I don't know where you got that. Moshe Rabbenu fielded a full army.

As far as learning keeping the country going, yeshivas have ten weeks off a year. The country doesn't collapse during bein hazmanim. Care to imagine what would happen if the army shut down for ten weeks?


We have an army. A full army.

Plenty of people still learn during those 10 weeks.
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moonstone




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jul 02 2020, 8:45 am
sequoia wrote:
Moonstone, I love you.

One of the reasons this topic on imamother causes so many hurt feelings is because there are women here whose sons are in the IDF, risking their lives, whose husbands are in the reserves from time to time and they have to handle everything at home by themselves, and then some amothers blithely tell them, “Your sons and husbands are doing nothing of value!”

Or even, “they are doing an aveira!” [!!!]


Hug Hug
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moonstone




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jul 02 2020, 8:48 am
Success10 wrote:
I don't think anyone here said soldiers are doing "nothing of value". I do, however, think that sentiment was used to describe the many husbands and sons who dedicate their lives to learning Torah.


Well, brave amother salmon claims that 90% of soldiers could just be sent home since they have free time to be on their phones.

I'd love for her to trade places with my son, even on the "easiest" day. 🙄 She'd be crying like a baby in 10 minutes flat.
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amother
Floralwhite


 

Post Thu, Jul 02 2020, 8:49 am
Zionism is the belief that the Jews are entitled to state in the area of modern day Israel.
Most chasidim disagree with this and are not zionist.
Israel litvish charadim didn't believe that we should necessarily campaign for a state but now we have it they would like to maintain it. Obviously its not an ideal that it's not run according to halacha but it exists and it's enabled thousands of yeshiva and Kollel to exist. As frum Jews we believe that what ever happens is hashgacha pratis, Hashem determines it for our own good. The state of Israel must be ratzon Hashem at this point by virtue of the fact that it exists. I think charadim don't like to call themselves zionist bc of the historical association with haskala and the likes of hertzle, Ben gurion etc who were anti Jewish. And people like bialik who left yeshiva to join the zionist movement. But those people are long dead, just not sure that all charadim got that memo:).
As for the army all litvish charadi gedolim have said that if someone is not learning that ideally should be in the army. They are however concerned about people being influenced by secular ideas in the army and going off the derech and so often advise against going to the army
Learning protects us but we don't rely on miracles we need an army and every jew should be greatful to the soldiers that protect us.
I'm part of the Israeli charadi world by the way.. At least somewhat
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amother
OP


 

Post Thu, Jul 02 2020, 10:11 am
shabbatiscoming wrote:
So OP, whats your opinion? Wink

I am a proud satmare yolis wife... I teach my kids that Zionism equals to Nazism... I send my protest together with nuturei karta. Lol
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shabbatiscoming




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jul 02 2020, 10:24 am
amother [ OP ] wrote:
I am a proud satmare yolis wife... I teach my kids that Zionism equals to Nazism... I send my protest together with nuturei karta. Lol
Wow, I am very sad that there are Frum Jews that feel that way.
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sequoia




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jul 02 2020, 10:24 am
shabbatiscoming wrote:
Wow, I am very sad that Frum Jews feel that way.


I think she’s being satirical.
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shabbatiscoming




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jul 02 2020, 10:25 am
sequoia wrote:
I think she’s being satirical.
I hope so, but you really never know on this web site Smile
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essie14




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jul 02 2020, 10:30 am
moonstone wrote:
Well, brave amother salmon claims that 90% of soldiers could just be sent home since they have free time to be on their phones.

I'd love for her to trade places with my son, even on the "easiest" day. 🙄 She'd be crying like a baby in 10 minutes flat.

Yup. when my sons come home DH and I can't begin to understand what they go through. We spoil them as much as we can in the precious few days we get to spend with them.
Sending you a big hug, fellow IDF Mama!
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amother
Apricot


 

Post Thu, Jul 02 2020, 10:49 am
shabbatiscoming wrote:
I hope so, but you really never know on this web site Smile


She wrote lol!
It's sarcastic!
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shabbatiscoming




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jul 02 2020, 10:50 am
amother [ Apricot ] wrote:
She wrote lol!
It's sarcastic!
I missed that Smile
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Jewishmom8




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jul 02 2020, 10:52 am
amother [ Floralwhite ] wrote:
Zionism is the belief that the Jews are entitled to state in the area of modern day Israel.
Most chasidim disagree with this and are not zionist.
Israel litvish charadim didn't believe that we should necessarily campaign for a state but now we have it they would like to maintain it. Obviously its not an ideal that it's not run according to halacha but it exists and it's enabled thousands of yeshiva and Kollel to exist. As frum Jews we believe that what ever happens is hashgacha pratis, Hashem determines it for our own good. The state of Israel must be ratzon Hashem at this point by virtue of the fact that it exists. I think charadim don't like to call themselves zionist bc of the historical association with haskala and the likes of hertzle, Ben gurion etc who were anti Jewish. And people like bialik who left yeshiva to join the zionist movement. But those people are long dead, just not sure that all charadim got that memo:).
As for the army all litvish charadi gedolim have said that if someone is not learning that ideally should be in the army. They are however concerned about people being influenced by secular ideas in the army and going off the derech and so often advise against going to the army
Learning protects us but we don't rely on miracles we need an army and every jew should be greatful to the soldiers that protect us.
I'm part of the Israeli charadi world by the way.. At least somewhat



all litvish charadi gedolim have said that if someone is not learning that ideally should be in the army.

That is absolutely not true.
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imasoftov




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jul 02 2020, 11:09 am
Jewishmom8 wrote:
all litvish charadi gedolim have said that if someone is not learning that ideally should be in the army.

That is absolutely not true.

OTOH, some even cause people who are learning to join the army by telling them not to file for a draft exemption.
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moonstone




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jul 02 2020, 12:33 pm
essie14 wrote:
Yup. when my sons come home DH and I can't begin to understand what they go through. We spoil them as much as we can in the precious few days we get to spend with them.
Sending you a big hug, fellow IDF Mama!


Right back at you! ! Hug

Yeah, we spoil our soldier boy (soon to be boys) too. I figure the least I can do is make his time at home as nice as possible.
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FmrNewEnglander




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jul 02 2020, 3:24 pm
A few more points:

1. I agree with the POST that begins "Zionism is the belief that the Jews are entitled to state in the area of modern day Israel." I dont think its 100 percent accurate -- but I think its right. The Zionism that people objected to 75-100 years ago is gone. (Look, if you are Satmar, and that is your philosophy -- fine.) However, look at history -- there was much appreciation and hope in 1948 from all sects of orthodox judaism Under the State of Israel there has been more Torah learning than ever. That is from a secular state and NOT in spite of the state. If the State was anti religious -- its not any more. Sure there are people and individuals (e.g. former Mayor of Tiveria) but not so many.

2. My kids who are in the army risk/ed their lives for the Jewish people. Soldiers are kids -- so not all of them think about it. Granted, for some -- its just what they do. For my kids who are/were lone soldiers they volunteered because they wanted to protect the Jewish people. (However "Gadol ha-mitzuveh ve-oseh me-me she-aino metzuveh")

3. It is unacceptable that there are people in israel who are not appreciative. To be fair -- even in certain places in Jerusalem my son has received encouragement. He davened in a chasidishe place in uniform on Sukkos -- and one person came up and was derogatory toward him -- but several more wished him a Gut Moed -- and that he should be safe. While I believe that people should serve -- there is a law -- and there are exemptions for Yeshiva students. That's fine. But if someone is literally risking their life, at very least, say thank you. I have nothing against full time learning. However, my son learned in Yeshiva before the army and Gd willing after -- Yeshiva is not risking your life.
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amother
Floralwhite


 

Post Thu, Jul 02 2020, 7:39 pm
Jewishmom8 wrote:
all litvish charadi gedolim have said that if someone is not learning that ideally should be in the army.

That is absolutely not true.


Actually, I think to clarify
They believe that all bochrim should be learning and resent the army stopping anyone learning. But, if someone is not learning then there is no reason for them not to go to the army, except they don't advise them to go to the army in case they get influenced to go off the derech. That is why rav shteinaman helped set up nachal charadi.
Nobody believes that the army is unnecessary. Yes, learning is essential is protecting eretz yisrael but we don't rely on miracles. We do hisdadlus, obviously we need an army. And, in principle if someone is not learning they need to go. If you don't believe me listen to the headlines podcast on zionism and the army where they interview a spokesperson for rav shteinaman.
And, yes its a mitzva to help protect am yisrael and of course you must show appreciation for someone putting their life on the line to protect you. That's basic derech eretz.
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amother
Magenta


 

Post Thu, Jul 02 2020, 11:03 pm
amother [ Salmon ] wrote:
Why?
Most of the boys are there for when we'll need them. They TRAIN. They cn take off from training for 3 week sometimes. They do, actually, like on weeekends.
I don't know when these boys are wawtching their movies. Maybe they are staying up all night and training all day and never sleeping. Could be.
I talk to a lot of people every day. 150 GB is a lot to use up. You need to watch a movie or two a day for that to happen.
I see how many yeshiva boys are strraming movies. Much, much less. The yeshiva boys who call me about their hidden smartphones are mainly going into other things.

I believe that we need some of the army. I think that the army could be smaller. (in peacetime)
I also think that if the army would not be a requirement about 70% of the boys would not enlist.


Combat soldiers are not watching movies during a regular week. They have a very set bedtime, and they have a short period of time before bed when they are allowed to hang out/rest/shower, and usually that's not enough time to watch movies.
They often don't have their phones with them during the day. Yes sometimes they get a day off, and they have Shabbat off - maybe they are watching then.

Non-combat soldiers? They are also crucial to the system and keep it running. Some of them do administrative work, some of them are in cyber units and protect the country in ways you could only dream of. They usually finish their shift in the evening and can watch as many movies as they want. Why is there a problem with that? They are not in jail, they are allowed free time.

People like cooks? They work for a full week at the base, then get a full week off. The ones on combat bases are often guys who wanted to be combat soldiers, but were injured during training - שברי מאמץ etc, not sure how to say in English - and the army found them a different job they could do on the same base. So they have a week off to either watch movies or work or whatever (and a week on, when they are working 24/7). Are these guys not working hard enough for you? Do you begrudge them the movies? Maybe we should have kept them in combat training, regardless of the injuries?
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amother
Magenta


 

Post Thu, Jul 02 2020, 11:22 pm
amother [ Salmon ] wrote:

I also think that if the army would not be a requirement about 70% of the boys would not enlist.


This might be true. It's not that boys today aren't Zionist, it's that it's a generation where people are looking out for their own future.
Let's put it this way. Would you pay taxes if it were voluntary? Even if you loved the country? I'd bet 70% wouldn't, or even more.

So these boys going to the army are sacrificing a lot. 70% would rather be doing something else.
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etky




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jul 02 2020, 11:30 pm
amother [ Magenta ] wrote:
Combat soldiers are not watching movies during a regular week. They have a very set bedtime, and they have a short period of time before bed when they are allowed to hang out/rest/shower, and usually that's not enough time to watch movies.
They don't have their phones with them all day. Yes sometimes they get a day off, and they have Shabbat off - maybe they are watching then.

Non-combat soldiers? They are also crucial to the system and keep it running. Some of them do administrative work, some of them are in cyber units and protect the country in ways you could only dream of. They usually finish their shift in the evening and can watch as many movies as they want. Why is there a problem with that? They are not in jail, they are allowed free time.

People like cooks? They work for a full week at the base, then get a full week off. The ones on combat bases are often guys who wanted to be combat soldiers, but were injured during training - שברי מאמץ etc, not sure how to say in English - and the army found them a different job they could do on the same base. So they have a week off to either watch movies or work or whatever (and a week on, when they are working 24/7). Are these guys not working hard enough for you? Do you begrudge them the movies? Maybe we should have kept them in combat training, regardless of the injuries?


Not to mention that there have been many thousands of soldiers stuck in bidud both on bases and at home over the past few months. At the moment there are just over 5000 soldiers in bidud (and 180 actively sick)- so unfortunately many, many thousands of soldiers and other IDF employees with lots of time on their hands since this Corona situation began four months ago.
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