Spinoff- struggling but still supporting married kids learn?

amother

Gold

Tue, Jul 07 2020, 7:05 pm

amother [ Chartreuse ] wrote:

In Lakewood? I'd be surprised and relieved to hear. I'm told that in much of the yeshivish world this is not the case. I have a friend who had graduated and had a very good job and her in laws still demanded 2500 a month for 7 years. (Which they are saving now because they don't need it).

Shes looking for a shorter term learner. Maybe 2-3 years. I think its obvious that unless there are extreme circumstances she can survive that long on 1 decent salary...

amother

Chartreuse

Tue, Jul 07 2020, 7:07 pm

amother [ Gold ] wrote:

Shes looking for a shorter term learner. Maybe 2-3 years. I think its obvious that unless there are extreme circumstances she can survive that long on 1 decent salary...

That makes sense then. I thought you were referring to a long term learner.

amother

Violet

Tue, Jul 07 2020, 7:10 pm

amother [ Amethyst ] wrote:

And why would it be such a bad idea to wait a year or two to start going out? Does every girl have to get married at 19? Considering that the learning boys generally start at 22, 23....

I think that's a great idea. But as long as the shidduch scene stays as competitive as it is, unlikely to happen! I know women who still preen themselves that they were the first of their class to get married, or their daughter was. (And these are middle aged women!)

amother

Amethyst

Tue, Jul 07 2020, 7:12 pm

amother [ Violet ] wrote:

Maybe that was then. But nowadays girls are getting married later and later. I personally know quite a few 22 to 25 year old girls. And there are plenty with money who are that she and are not engaged either.

amother

Amethyst

Tue, Jul 07 2020, 7:14 pm

amother [ Chartreuse ] wrote:

I'm in the yeshivish world and I'm pretty sure that's the exception, not the rule. The numbers I have heard were much lower.

amother

Plum

Tue, Jul 07 2020, 7:16 pm

amother [ Violet ] wrote:

I agree with just about every bit of what you say. I will just add, that if the girl has a very good job, most parents/boys are fine with that.
But, that starts another domino effect of girls rushing to finish college or hurrying into a career path because they know they need to in order to get married.
I think it's mostly the 19 (and even 20 year old) girls getting married that need to bring support with them, by way of parents. Whether it's helping her through school or supplementing rent or groceries. Your average 19 year old girl doesn't have savings or earning capacity yet that can do it all.
Obviously there will be an exception here and there with a girl who saved up every penny of babysitting money since she was 12. (But in my experience most of them used that babysitting money to pay for seminary.)

I don't agree.
In my experience, support is expected no matter what the girl's job or age is.

I'll also add that I don't think most young couple need the support for day to day living expenses, assuming the wife has a semi-decent job. They can live those first few years on one salary.
I think most couples save the money for a down payment on a house. Which one and necessarily such a bad thing, if only it wasn't coming from a father who couldn't afford it.

amother

Violet

Tue, Jul 07 2020, 7:18 pm

amother [ Amethyst ] wrote:

Sure there are. But there are still plenty of 19 and 20 year old kallahs. And it's still seen as a coup. Still lots of preening. Lol.

Another of those shifts. Used to be, within a couple of years the majority of a grade would be married. There were very very few single 24 or 25 year old girls. It's shifted over the past 20 years, now it's not seen as unusual, at all. That's what I was trying to explain but I guess wasn't clear enough.

amother

Violet

Tue, Jul 07 2020, 7:20 pm

amother [ Plum ] wrote:

I am sure there are.
However, I do know many people where it's not the case. However, those aren't the 20 year old kallahs. They are 22 and up.

amother

Plum

Tue, Jul 07 2020, 7:29 pm

amother [ Gold ] wrote:

Just want to add- my sister is a 23 y.o nurse. Shes looking for a learning guy. I dont think my parents have been asked about support since she graduated and started working. There is an age and stage where people assume that the couple will be ok w.o the support..

Like I said, I'm sure there are examples of some who don't demand support. But they are the minority.

amother

Plum

Tue, Jul 07 2020, 7:31 pm

amother [ Violet ] wrote:

I am sure there are.
However, I do know many people where it's not the case. However, those aren't the 20 year old kallahs. They are 22 and up.

I hear you. That has not been my experience but I only know what I know.

Also it's interesting that you're saying 22 and up. 22 is not considered that old these days.

amother

Violet

Tue, Jul 07 2020, 7:46 pm

amother [ Plum ] wrote:

I hear you. That has not been my experience but I only know what I know.

Also it's interesting that you're saying 22 and up. 22 is not considered that old these days.

Lol, I know it's not old. More than a number, I guess I meant old enough to be finished college.
I'm thinking anywhere of 23-27. Past that, most (not all, of course) still single girls switch to looking for someone with a job. And then support is a moot point anyway.

amother

Honeydew

Tue, Jul 07 2020, 7:51 pm

amother [ Amethyst ] wrote:

Just to point out that 21 is relatively young in the litvish world.

Yes I know we're litvish but she would have been married by now if they could promise support. Plus not so young when she has a string of sisters right under her.

amother

Babyblue

Wed, Jul 08 2020, 2:09 am

I think the reason that ones you hit 22/23 ppl stop discussing support is that the kind of guys you are redt where less likely to ask for so much money to begin with - more like 1,000$. The real snobby "top"ones who drain your pocket get married young - this is not to say there are no guys in this age range who are top learner - they just tend to e a different type then the ones who demand a ton of money.

Also once your are that age you either have a degree and make good money, or have been working a while, and have savings

amother

Purple

Wed, Jul 08 2020, 8:33 am

amother [ Babyblue ] wrote:

They stop discussing support? Not IME.

Chayalle

Wed, Jul 08 2020, 9:33 am

amother [ Honeydew ] wrote:

Yes I know we're litvish but she would have been married by now if they could promise support. Plus not so young when she has a string of sisters right under her.

It's a smokescreen. You don't know that she would have been married with more money.

I know times have changed, but I still remember the naysayers who told me I should forget about a learning boy without parental support. Including a friend of mine whose parents were promising full support, and she is still single in her 40's, Hashem should help her find her zivug b'karov.

What happened to believing that a person's zivug is ordained by Hashem?

Chayalle

Wed, Jul 08 2020, 9:35 am

Chartreuse's example is rather extreme. I have two nieces who married long-term learners in the last few years (months, one of them, actually) and in both cases the commitment is more like 2-3 years, and less per month. I have heard that being quite the norm.

amother

Cerulean

Wed, Jul 08 2020, 10:41 am

I have a yeshivish, very strong learner, wonderful middos Bh son in shidduchim now. He is my oldest.
Yes, people are greedy and ask for very high numbers. I bh do not and won’t be part of that.
What I’m hearing for ‘yeshiva’ people the norm they are offering to support their daughter and son in law is $1200 for 7 years.
That and with the girl working and the boys side giving something should be ok for the beginning.

amother

Violet

Wed, Jul 08 2020, 10:45 am

amother [ Cerulean ] wrote:

But to stay on topic with this thread...a truly struggling family doesn't have an extra $1200 per month to give. And what if they have a few daughters close in age? That could add up to an extra $4000 per month.

amother

Cerulean

Wed, Jul 08 2020, 10:54 am

amother [ Violet ] wrote:

True, how are these people supposed to make weddings? And $1200 is on the lower range.
However they plan on doing that they most likely (not saying all) will need to take some of that money to help support. It definitely is challenging but unfortunately this is the system.

amother

Violet

Wed, Jul 08 2020, 11:22 am

This is probably part of the reason lots of girls are getting married a bit older. Because their parents can't offer support. And I think as a result you are also starting to see slightly older single boys in yeshiva who are still single, mid to upper 20s. Used to also be fairly unusual to have a 26 or 27 year old yeshiva guy unmarried.
So they get married a couple years later. By that point his parents likely concede that a girl with a CPA (for example) who has been working at a government job with a decent salary and great benefits is just fine, they don't need her parents to kick in $1000 a month.
Maybe this is actually better all around.