EZ degrees. Trying to understand.

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Forum -> Chinuch, Education & Schooling

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amother

Emerald

Tue, Jul 07 2020, 8:10 pm

amother [ Blush ] wrote:

I have 2 daughter who got their degrees from COPE CPA program and a son who got his business degree from Brooklyn college with honors. Let me tell you , my girls learnt much more business related info. His degree had much more fluff. The girl got much better jobs because they had more business knowledge as that was their main focus.

Just for context purposes - Did your daughters and son get an equal education in their high school years?

amother

Babyblue

Tue, Jul 07 2020, 8:20 pm

As a nurse my degree was very helpful. Yes I still knew very close to nothing about how to do my actual job the first day on the floor but still glad it is a requirement.

amother

Linen

Tue, Jul 07 2020, 9:02 pm

I got one of those quick degrees.

It was fine. None of it really mattered for my job anyway. I got an entry level position and learned on the job. I am just as good as anyone else where I work and I am doing very well professionally.

I personally think that college is a huge scam. It would make a lot more sense for them to revamp as trade schools. There is no reason my accountant needs to learn biology and world history and my therapist has no need for business law and economics. Since that is never going to happen, I see college as a means to an end. A way to get a job.

If academia is the end goal then join a think tank.

amother

Mint

Tue, Jul 07 2020, 9:04 pm

amother [ Lilac ] wrote:

Yup. Frum Harvard law school students mostly have BTLs and a high LSAT score.

I don't think so. A few do. However, the guys with BTLs don't do as well in the long run as frum lawyers who went to college. Professional success requires a certain amount of worldliness, writing ability and social skills. At some point, you can't fake it anymore. There are very few big law partners with a BTL.

amother

Red

Tue, Jul 07 2020, 9:04 pm

amother [ Linen ] wrote:

I agree. Learn what you need to know for your chosen profession. But unfortunately, that’s not how things work.

amother

Lilac

Tue, Jul 07 2020, 9:10 pm

amother [ Mint ] wrote:

Hmm. I factually know more than a few doing well with BTLs (some are just starting out, but did exceptionally well in school- top 3%, and job wise). Also, several of the ones I know have fathers that are big law partners so if they believe this is a fair/ good choice, who am I to argue?!

I will say that if you’re going to go to law school with a BTL, your biggest gaps will be in computer and writing skills. So working on those can help. Even just a typing lag can hurt a lot.

I think law and computers are outliers in that sense- unlike medicine where you need a lot of science core etc. in these fields it’s really about the skills and raw IQ / capabilities.

amother

Apricot

Tue, Jul 07 2020, 9:26 pm

amother [ Emerald ] wrote:

Would it matter to you how quickly your MD got his degree? Would you want to be the patient that your MD is learning on the job from? Same goes for a lawyer or an accountant. Would you want a lawyer who rushed through his degree to defend you, or an accountant to try mastering all the loopholes of our system on your financials? How about

It matters even in social work, speech and psychology. What kind of therapist would I want for my child (or myself). One that spent the time and effort to understand the field he is going into, or one that crammed just to get to the end point? Even if a lot of it gained with hands on experience, there's still a knowledge bed and understanding that is necessary to incorporate. That doesn't get incorporated with cramming. It does get incorporated with focus, time and practical/technical applications. Of course, there will always be exceptions, but they are just that, exceptions. Perhaps in the long run when the years of experience have accumulated it makes no difference, but for the first few years it sure does make a difference.

Our communities generally don't value degrees. We consider it a piece of paper, and don't have too much insight what goes into earning a degree. Therefore, in jobs that degrees are mandated the employers in our community don't care too much where you earned the degree, as long as you have one. That's why there isn't much difficulty in finding jobs within our community. And that's why we have a lot of these EZ degrees field overly saturated. And that's why we also have a healthy amount of young adults changing their minds about their chosen degrees. If not too much work is involved, people don't give it its due thought, and just jump into it more easily.

I will add though, that if you're going for a graduate degree that does change things. You will have those extra years to incorporate the skills, knowledge and hands on experienced so rushing through the undergrad degree has much of an effect.

Personally, I have no idea how long my doctors and therapists (bH never needed a lawyer) took to get their degrees or what college they went to or even what kind of degree they have. I don't care about that. I care about experience and base my decisions on that and referrals. I would never choose to see a doctor who is a resident or a therapist who just graduated.

However, the way the system works is that a person needs to go through all the motions, complete all the silly classes along with the important ones, get good grades and score well on tests to be able to do what they want (become a dr, lawyer etc and get a high level job). That is how it works. There is no choice in certain fields. But let's not pretend that the whole "college experience " is necessary or even good. I do not think that learning the required African American studies, myths of ancient Aztecs or introduction to self-care did anything to further myself as a "well educated individual".

amother

Bronze

Tue, Jul 07 2020, 9:56 pm

amother [ Cyan ] wrote:

For people who are going into careers that require grad school why not hasten the process with a shortened version of undergrad. Most likely the knowledge they will need to know for their job is not coming from their undergrad education anyways...

Because grad school is the next level built on the foundation of undergrad knowledge. Just like college level math needs the foundation of high school math, so too you need a continuous course in your learning to build up the bricks slowly on a study foundation

amother

Mint

Tue, Jul 07 2020, 10:10 pm

amother [ Lilac ] wrote:

Again, let's see where those guys are in ten years. I know one or two who made it, but they had the advantage of being baalei teshuva, which means that they had a broader exposure to the world than your average yeshiva guy. Some careers are hard for people who grow up sheltered.

If you value learning for its own sake, then college is important. If you don't care about ideas, then it's not.

notshanarishona

Tue, Jul 07 2020, 11:03 pm

I found my bachelors degree to just be a stepping stone to get into a good Masters. I did my bachelors during high school and sem through TTI and then started in a good masters program the year after sem. 15 years later and I don’t have regrets about the way I did it.

amother

Olive

Wed, Jul 08 2020, 1:25 am

I personally would not hire someone who went through a "quickie degree". I work with so many of them and to be blatantly honest- they are lacking basic skills including logical reasoning, professional writing (or writing that is at a minimal level for coherence), and specific skills necessary for the field I am in. I am no expert but I went to a real graduate program (only frum person in my class) and can see the difference it made when compared to the online program graduates.
For those who say social science majors do not need to know economics, accounting, or math- how can someone open up a private practice (say as a therapist or speech pathologist) if they do not know core fundamentals like spreadsheets, supply and demand, critical thinking or problem solving (algebra 2 and physics taught me the most about solving complex problems and how to "attack" an issue from both sides and I am not a Math major and I dont use physics at my work! Potential Energy vs Kinetic Energy?).

Now I dont think you have to go to a 4 year Ivy university for undergrad. But a 6 month program cannot decently prepare you for graduate school or the real professional world.

amother

Magenta

Wed, Jul 08 2020, 1:39 am

amother [ Olive ] wrote:

I see that in many graduates of "real" colleges.

amother

Magenta

Wed, Jul 08 2020, 1:42 am

amother [ Babyblue ] wrote:

As a nurse my degree was very helpful. Yes I still knew very close to nothing about how to do my actual job the first day on the floor but still glad it is a requirement.

In some fields, degrees are still worth something.

amother

Wed, Jul 08 2020, 2:52 am

Just btw... during my time in graduate school, I was a approached a few times by people from those “quickie” programs and they asked me to write their papers or to refer them to someone to write their papers etc. Even in clinical practice... they said there are ways to just get signatures without actually doing the work...
I was shocked, to say the least! It would NEVER have worked in my program because they were so on top of us doing things right. So let’s say like some of you say, you just need to get through college to have the degree in order to gain experience..., when you do clinical work it prepares you for what is to come, and also provides you with experience to be able to start competently. I’m not even discussing the ethical part of it. I’m just shocked that so many people are supporting it here. I’m not saying all the classes in college are important, some are ridiculous and should be scrapped. But a LOT of the classes provide you with important skills and knowledge, and need to be understood properly.

amother

Aqua

Wed, Jul 08 2020, 5:33 am

amother [ Emerald ] wrote:

Just for context purposes - Did your daughters and son get an equal education in their high school years?

My young ultra-chasidish employer, a CPA with a quick degree, got a minimal (if any) secular education, and is very competent and successful at what he does.

IMHO, intelligence, an inquisitive mind, ambition, and social skills is a greater contributor to success than how/where the degree was earned.

amother

Yellow

Wed, Jul 08 2020, 6:59 am

mamma llama wrote:

With TTI, I believe you can get your bachelor in a year.

I heard you can do it in 6 months if you're focused.

amother

Blush

Wed, Jul 08 2020, 7:23 am

amother [ Emerald ] wrote:

Just for context purposes - Did your daughters and son get an equal education in their high school years?

Yes. My son did get a good secular education. It just that the girls college focused all on business while he got a standard degree with loads of fluff and just a few classes in business.

amother

Purple

Wed, Jul 08 2020, 9:58 am

notshanarishona wrote:

what type of MA? Did the graduate program care about the BA? This is what I hope to do eventually. Going back to school and not sure what I want to do.

bsy

Wed, Jul 08 2020, 10:18 am

I did a quick but "real" degree in sarah schenirer and then went to a regular graduate school. Core subjects like math and bio were cleps. I was not at any disadvantage compared to all my non Jewish classmates who went to 4 year college programs. I was the youngest though and they couldn't figure out how I was in school at 22.

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