Nu, who's suing to open NY schools full time?

SixOfWands

Thu, Jul 09 2020, 11:06 am

itsmeima wrote:

I'm confused about this too, if they are allowing day camps, why are schools different?

Here day camps are ten kids per group and it's mainly outside, bring your own food and no transportation, but I've been told in NY it's different...

You answered your own question.

10 kids, as opposed to 32 in elementary school, more in high school.

Outdoors as opposed to indoors. With windows closed in bad weather and colder months.

Fixed group as opposed to changing group, especially in higher grades.

NYC has proposed a blended learning model, with 1/3 to 1/2 of the students attending in person each day, to allow for social distancing, and the rest continuing to use zoom (presumably of the classroom). Masks, of course. This is pretty much in accordance with CDC guidelines.

Amarante

Thu, Jul 09 2020, 11:07 am

The issue is not "whether" schools can open. The issue is that they cannot safely open without modifying the manner in which they operate.

In essence, they can operate in the same way that day camps are allowed to operate - with social distancing; elimination of congregate activities like big dining hall; ventilation; masks to the extent possible.

However, as others have posted, it is extremely difficult for schools to operate under these conditions because they don't have the space to social distance and they don't have the number of teachers to limit class size.

Those countries which have opened schools have controlled infection rates so that they are able to contain "hot spots". There is not enough infection in the community so that controlled opening of schools is relatively safe. They have ample tests to test quickly and they have the ability to contact trace. They also seem to have a population that is willing to be compliant to a greater extent.

Many of the countries also have support systems in place to help with the virus. Things like the quarantine hotels which I know that Israel had which enabled families to quarantine. Countries also had a much better health system AND a social welfare system so that people weren't on bread lines because the government provided them with income.

The issue comes down to funding - it costs a lot of money to open schools safely. How are they going to expand facilities to social distance? Where are they going to get maintenance to keep on top of cleaning bathrooms and other areas? Where are they going to get teachers to enable smaller class sizes which would seem to be necessary in order to open safely.

Day camps are completely different as it is possible for a camp to have a small group of 10 children who stay together. It is relatively easy to hire counselors to supervise small groups. As compared to licensed teachers, a counselor is inexpensive. A camp can adjust its size as well as charge whatever is necessary to cover increased costs.

As I posted upthread, I would think a solution would be to provide day care to those parents who need it on those days when physical presence in a school with a teacher isn't possible. Day care centers have been run successfully and they can take place in facilities that are otherwise vacant including vacant office and retail spaces. Lots of malls and big departments stores are vacant. You don't need an expensive licensed teacher to supervise the small group of kids. There could also be Wifi and the necessary computer equipment available which would help those without this in their homes. Additionally food could be provided to those attending - it wouldn't be a "hot lunch" but it could be a nutritious lunch for kids who would otherwise be hungry.

Also, expanding day care would provide work for iots of people who are otherwise unemployed. FDR provided lots of work to help unemployed people during the Great Depression and many great things were done and built by the WPA. Public buildings are still standing for example that was built during this period.

amother

Gray

Thu, Jul 09 2020, 11:15 am

Amarante wrote:

Most, if not all of the chasidishe schools (some of whom were opened already and operating normally) dont have licensed teachers and the day camps are not only with 10 kids or taking place outside so your theory doesnt work.

Mama Bear

Thu, Jul 09 2020, 11:17 am

amother [ Crimson ] wrote:

This is what ALL the countries who hav managed to get the pandemic under control have done. '

There are still no tests available for many people in Arizona and Florida and other places that want them. And the results are often delayed for a week which makes them essentially useless as a way to stop the spread of infection.

The EU opened intelligently and so things are now able to be getting back to normal. They were at the same trajectory as the US was in March and they have flattened the curve. Some of the worst hit areas have NO hospitalizations.

The US absolutely bungled and squandered the three months it had and opened prematurely in many states without satisfying the indicia of what was safe.

.

There are no countries who have managed to get it under control. Many are experiencing a second wave, and the others will get their second wave soon...

The united states is like Europe. You can't consider the US on the same level as one European country. Every state is like its own country.
THe states outside the tri-state area were all on scrupulous lockdown for 2 months. Then they reopened and got hit.
Europe got hit all at the same time, hence they reopened with no second wave.

amother

Plum

Thu, Jul 09 2020, 11:24 am

watergirl wrote:

I’m not sure I believe that to be true. Surge/spike is only according to reported cases. I have a hard time believing those who sent to illegal schools would go to the dr or to a dr who would report cases.

Look, you don't HAVE to believe anything, we are managing just fine without random people's believings. Here's the thing. As of isru chag Pesach, many many chassidishe schools/chederim reopened gradually, cautiously. First in secret basements or apartments as a trial for 14 days. When no spike followed, they moved back into the regular buildings. When 2 more weeks without new cases as per Hatzalah, they reopened full scale with transportation under the disguise of "daycare". BH, all are safe.

Check it out with NY Hatzalah for Williamsburg, BP, Monsey, Monroe.

You're Welcome.

P.S. As a matter of fact, it was brought to Cuomo's attention and he merely brushed it off, saying he issues executive orders and it is up to local law enforcement to execute those orders...

Mama Bear

Thu, Jul 09 2020, 11:35 am

soap suds wrote:

Thing is we DON’T know exactly what happens, because what’s happening in Israel didn’t happen in Brooklyn.

Exactly. Many yeshivos/schools quietly reopened for in-person learning in June and there was no outbreak. But that's largely bc people have short-term immunity. In Israel the ppl who got it now after reopening got it for the first time. In NY we had it the first go-round.... But there are starting to be a handful of repeat cases, so we don't know what's gonna be in september.

nylon wrote:

It's not just de Blasio. The teachers are going to refuse to go to work if they have to work like normal. Other states are doing these blended plans too.

The issue is the teachers union who are demanding these rules. The yeshiva/school teachers aren't expecting/demanding their employers to follow these rules. The small handful that do would probably be out of a job - -they're not in a union. that's why I don't really understand why these rules have to be imposed on private schools where the teachers, students, and parent body all want normal schedules to resume.

ra_mom wrote:

Day camps have opened here. Somehow that's protected. But school causes covid.

The governor didn't know that in Brooklynese, day camps means that everything is the same as school, it's just called daycamp. In his mind day camp was probably a handful of kids, and mostly everything is outdoors.... If he'd known that 'daycamp' means school is on as usual with almost the same amount of kids he probalby wouldn't sign off on it....

in truth daycamps do have fewer kids than regular school. But not in groups of 10 as he wanted...

Amarante

Thu, Jul 09 2020, 11:36 am

amother [ Gray ] wrote:

You do realize that public health policy isn't driven by what is happening in a few schools in Williamsburg. LOL

The cost of teachers is irrelevant as the cost of teachers in order for schools to be opened is one of many issues facing school districts.

I am not going to discuss whether certain small groups of the population should be exempt from health and safety regulations because they feel that those are irrelevant for whatever reason.

If parents want to send their children to schools with unlicensed teachers which are operating outside the law, that is certainly an option but has nothing to do with how schools for most children can be opened safely.

Amarante

Thu, Jul 09 2020, 12:08 pm

PinkFridge wrote:

This is a whole different paradigm of day care. It's older than preschool. Will it mean supervising the kids on their tablets etc.? And then homework or free play, recesss? What if they're on different schedules?

I agree it would have to be worked out. I was just postulating for school age children - not those who are too young for school.

I would think they could be set up like many after school hour centers are set up.

I would imagine the logistics could be worked out fairly easily. If a parent needs supervision on days when there is no in-school attendance, they would indicate and a pod would be set up.

I am not sure what the issue of supervision on tablets. To the extent they are having Zoom or on-line work, you wouldn't need an additional licensed teacher to help.

amother

Pearl

Thu, Jul 09 2020, 12:36 pm

amother [ Plum ] wrote:

In April, Brooklyn was the deadliest county in the US. https://www.nbcnewyork.com/new.....8142/

amother

Pearl

Thu, Jul 09 2020, 12:40 pm

Mama Bear wrote:

I don't think that "we break the law" is a particularly compelling argument for anything.

BTW, we're already seeing camps closed due to covid. In this case, "As part of more than 30 measures being taken to prevent an outbreak, staff were said to have installed "medical-grade air filtration systems" and hand sanitizers in each cabin, while requiring the campers to sleep head-to-foot. Parents also had to complete a form asserting that their child had self-quarantined for 14 days prior to heading off for camp."

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/a.....souri

amother

Crimson

Thu, Jul 09 2020, 12:48 pm

amother [ Pearl ] wrote:

I don't think that "we break the law" is a particularly compelling argument for anything.

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/a.....souri

I find the freely expressed sentiment that laws are okay to break very disturbing.

What if everyone decided only to obey those laws which they felt were applicable to them?

What other laws and regulations okay to ignore because an individual feels they know better and are above the law. That the laws are intended for "other people".

This is completely different than civil disobedience in which someone takes a reasoned stance against a particular law which they find violates an important right and MOST IMPORTANTLY is prepared to take the consequences. There is a difference between Nelson Mandela or even Rosa Parks and someone who feels they are tricking the system by running an illegal school