Discussion on the Daf - Shabbat

amother

Orchid

Wed, Jul 08 2020, 10:44 am

malki2 wrote:

Rashi says explicitly not what you said. He definitely understood that people lived without spoons for a period of time.

I know, I just find it hard to imagine that it was the reality. But again, I don't have a dog in this fight. I offered a different understanding. If it doesn't work for you, ignore it. Fine with me.

malki2

Wed, Jul 08 2020, 10:48 am

amother [ Orchid ] wrote:

I know, I just find it hard to imagine that it was the reality. But again, I don't have a dog in this fight. I offered a different understanding. If it doesn't work for you, ignore it. Fine with me.

No problem. I definitely understand your difficulty with the concept and had difficulty with it as well! It just seems pretty clear from the sources that this was the actual reality, not just a thought process.

Aylat

Wed, Jul 08 2020, 5:34 pm

amother [ Orchid ] wrote:

I know, I just find it hard to imagine that it was the reality.

Right? I was telling my daughter about this and her questions made me really think it through. What about clothes - could you change into nightclothes and get dressed in the morning? Move your chair closer / further from the table?

malki2

Wed, Jul 08 2020, 5:47 pm

Aylat wrote:

I didn’t see this anywhere, but maybe you could say that the Gemara was referring to non-standard utensils like tools. Of those Kelim they only permitted three. But certainly things like clothing and basic utensils were always permitted.

Aylat

Wed, Jul 08 2020, 5:53 pm

malki2 wrote:

I wonder. Because it says כלים (am I right?) and clothes and furniture fall into that category, eg as regards הלכות טומאה which we refer to all the time to determine the status of objects vis a vis Shabbat.

Also, what do you mean by "basic utensils"? Which is more basic, a spoon or a chair?

malki2

Thu, Jul 09 2020, 4:37 pm

Aylat wrote:

What I meant is that maybe spoons and chairs were always non-muktze because they were very basic. The Gemara was specifically referring to non-basic utensils, of which only three were permitted. Later they permitted all non-basic utensils as long as their use was permissible on Shabbat.

Aylat

Fri, Jul 10 2020, 7:38 am

Shabbat 125

שאין עושין אהל עראי בתחלה ביו"ט וא"צ לומר בשבת לא נחלקו אלא להוסיף שר"א אומר אין מוסיפין ביו"ט וא"צ לומר בשבת ווחכ"א מוסיפין בשבת וא"צ לומר ביו"ט

Why would there be any difference between Yom Tov and Shabbat for בונה? I thought it's only אוכל נפש.

malki2

Fri, Jul 10 2020, 7:46 am

Aylat wrote:

In the end, there isn’t. It just says that if you can do it in Shabbos, then certainly you can do it on Yom Tov, and if you can’t do it on Yom Tov, then certainly you can’t do it on Shabbos. Everyone agrees that Shabbos is more stringent than Yom Tov.

Aylat

Fri, Jul 10 2020, 8:07 am

malki2 wrote:

Yeah, but what's the הבא אמינה that it would be. It's a given that the only difference is אוכל נפש.

malki2

Fri, Jul 10 2020, 8:21 am

Aylat wrote:

Yeah, but what's the הבא אמינה that it would be. It's a given that the only difference is אוכל נפש.

Even if there is no difference besides אוכל נפש, Shabbat is still more חמור than Yom Tov. But you are right, your question is better than my answer.

Aylat

Fri, Jul 10 2020, 11:27 am

malki2 wrote:

Even if there is no difference besides אוכל נפש, Shabbat is still more חמור than Yom Tov. But you are right, your question is better than my answer.

I'll stick with the question till I one day get an answer. Anyone else have suggestions?

Aylat

Fri, Jul 10 2020, 11:29 am

Shabbat 126b

I Iike the halacha that you can move (a certain amount of) muktze stuff to make room for guests or people learning Torah.

malki2

Fri, Jul 10 2020, 11:39 am

Aylat wrote:

Shabbat 126b

I Iike the halacha that you can move (a certain amount of) muktze stuff to make room for guests or people learning Torah.

It’s not Muktze stuff. It’s non-Muktze stuff which would ordinarily be an issue to move because of Tircha.

Aylat

Sat, Jul 11 2020, 2:53 pm

malki2 wrote:

It’s not Muktze stuff. It’s non-Muktze stuff which would ordinarily be an issue to move because of Tircha.

You're absolutely right, I misunderstood.

Aylat

Mon, Jul 13 2020, 4:22 am

malki2 wrote:

It’s not Muktze stuff. It’s non-Muktze stuff which would ordinarily be an issue to move because of Tircha.

I saw a nice interpretation of this (no source, just an idea from another woman who's learning). That you're allowed to clear away boxes for guests/Torah scholars - because preparing for guests is never too much of a bother.

Aylat

Mon, Jul 13 2020, 4:31 am

Shabbat 127

מפנין תרומה טהורה וכו':
פשיטא לא צריכא אדמנחה ביד ישראל מהו דתימא כיון דלא חזיא ליה אסור קמ"ל כיון דחזיא לכהן שפיר דמי
I wonder if this answers a longstanding question I've had about muktze: We follow the opinion that one can't use wet-wipes on Shabbat. My sister follows the opinion that using wet-wipes is allowed. If my sister is staying with us for Shabbat, may I pass her the wipes or are they muktze for me? They are מוכן for use on Shabbat, even though I do not use them.
Extrapolating from this Gemara that תרומה is not muktze for a non-Cohen, I would guess that the wet-wipes are not muktze for me. (I will still ask a shaila though.)

malki2

Mon, Jul 13 2020, 5:23 am

Aylat wrote:

Cute. But it actually does sound like a good interpretation!

malki2

Mon, Jul 13 2020, 5:25 am

Aylat wrote:

Sounds like a good proof! When you ask the shaila make sure to tell this to the Rav as well!

imorethanamother

Tue, Jul 14 2020, 1:49 am

Quote:

If someone is lax about the meal following bloodletting, then from the Heavenly Court they are lax about supplying his provisions, for they say, "If he does not show concern for his own life, shall I show concern for him?"

Whoa. Discuss.

Aylat

Tue, Jul 14 2020, 2:49 am

imorethanamother wrote:

Quote:

Whoa. Discuss.

G-d helps those who help themselves?