Study: Nail In Coffin Of Dangerous Concept Of Herd Immunity

soap suds

Mon, Jul 13 2020, 8:44 pm

Ema of 4 wrote:

The point is there ISN'T herd immunity. Just because people decided there is, doesn’t make it fact.

Then explain what’s happening in frum Brooklyn. What is it if not (perhaps short term) herd immunity?

amother

Beige

Mon, Jul 13 2020, 8:55 pm

soap suds wrote:

Then explain what’s happening in frum Brooklyn. What is it if not (perhaps short term) herd immunity?

The same as what happened between waves in other pandemics?

There was a lull between the waves in the Spanish pandemic too, nothing to do with immunity. Once it has peaked it can die down and then sometimes come back only several months later.

amother

Aquamarine

Mon, Jul 13 2020, 9:04 pm

Laiya wrote:

First of all, it's not a "nail in the coffin" when it's not even a peer reviewed study.

The question yet to be conclusively answered is, Are antibodies the only way to have immunity? Here's an interesting recent article on the possible interactions of T cells, B cells, etc. in creating immunity, apart from antibodies.

Here's this article, here's that article, ,and here's another one. I can just about whip up an article for any stance that's out there.

Bottom line, at this point, we don't know much at all. So instead of everyone going with what they want to believe, we just need to admit - we don't know. And to proceed with caution, until we have something definitive. It doesn't mean we need to stop life, just move on with restrictions in place.

Laiya

Mon, Jul 13 2020, 9:36 pm

amother [ Aquamarine ] wrote:

No, not really.

The original study posted is misleading, as it's known there is more to immunity than antibody levels.

Let's try to share positive news and research, not needlessly feed into anxiety.

amother

Jetblack

Mon, Jul 13 2020, 9:53 pm

keym wrote:

"forget it, with these precautions. If I'm going to die from Corona anyways, I might as well hug the grandkids and have huge family parties."

Many of them are already saying it.

Elderly people who still have spouses are isolating together. But most ppl can’t handle being alone. Waving from the porch doesn’t really count.

4sure

Mon, Jul 13 2020, 9:59 pm

Laiya wrote:

Totally agree. It's the way you want to look at it.

amother

Aquamarine

Mon, Jul 13 2020, 10:17 pm

Laiya wrote:

There are articles for both types of immunity (humoral and cellular), with no definitive conclusion for either. And there are articles discounting all immunity for CV. This article isn't misleading, it's just lending its perspective based on what these scientists have found. They've gone public with their findings since a good portion of society have pinned their hopes on the antibodies. They're discounting our current theories and hopes, and not all of immunity.

soap suds

Mon, Jul 13 2020, 11:08 pm

amother [ Beige ] wrote:

All the more reason to let people enjoy the lull before we have to lock down again.

amother

Aquamarine

Mon, Jul 13 2020, 11:12 pm

penguin wrote:

The 'fact' that antibodies decline does not mean that the body won't recognize the virus next time it see it and mount an effective immune response.

Can you please expand on that? How will the body recognize this exact virus next time around?

gold21

Mon, Jul 13 2020, 11:28 pm

amother [ Aquamarine ] wrote:

Can you please expand on that? How will the body recognize this exact virus next time around?

the hype, if you can call it that, surrounding this virus is based on the idea that it is novel and our bodies don't recognize it. from there, I extrapolate that the body has some recognition of viruses it has encountered previously.

gold21

Mon, Jul 13 2020, 11:29 pm

Memory B cells are a B cell sub-type that are formed within germinal centers following primary infection. Memory B cells can survive for decades and repeatedly generate an accelerated and robust antibody-mediated immune response in the case of re-infection (also known as a secondary immune response).[1][2]

Secondary Response and Memory

The memory B cells produced during the primary immune response are specific to the antigen involved during the first exposure. In a secondary response, the memory B cells specific to the antigen or similar antigens will respond.[2] When memory B cells reencounter their specific antigen, they proliferate and differentiate into plasma cells, which then respond to and clear the antigen.[2] The memory B cells that do not differentiate into plasma cells at this point can reenter the germinal centers to undergo further class switching or somatic hypermutation for further affinity maturation.[2] Differentiation of memory B cells into plasma cells is far faster than differentiation by naïve B cells, which allows memory B cells to produce a more efficient secondary immune response.[7] The efficiency and accumulation of the memory B cell response is the foundation for vaccines and booster shots.[7][2]

gold21

Mon, Jul 13 2020, 11:34 pm

With that said, if the virus were to mutate dramatically (and fast enough that herd immunity hadn't yet kicked in for the original strains) the whole memory cell antibody thing would likely not be as helpful.

However, coronaviruses are RNA viruses which typically do not mutate as quickly or as dramatically as influenza viruses do. Influenza viruses are masters at mutation. Coronaviruses are different.

amother

Aquamarine

Mon, Jul 13 2020, 11:43 pm

gold21 wrote:

By the way, I cut and pasted from Wikipedia above. Those aren't my words.

That's a case for antibodies, not against antibodies.

The memory b cells are what produce the antibodies.

amother

Aquamarine

Mon, Jul 13 2020, 11:44 pm

gold21 wrote:

And that is the memory B cells, which produce antibodies.

There are two types of specific immunity, humoral and cell mediated. The humoral one functions via memory B cells & antibodies. The cell mediated one functions via T cells which kill off infected cells.

Both are being studied for their CV response, and there isn't anything conclusive yet to speak of. But the laymen do seem to have all the answers. Dont know

. Maybe someone needs to clue the scientists in.

gold21

Tue, Jul 14 2020, 12:11 am

I don't claim to have all the answers. Not at all. Nor am I an anti-masker. I was sharing this info in response to a question above. But please feel free to contact the scientists. They can simply check Wikipedia if they can't gain access to Imamother. Cool