Camp in Vermont | Imamother

amother

Tue, Jul 14 2020, 6:30 am

amother [ Blue ] wrote:

There were coaches filled with 900 people. Really hard not to see this as a Chilul Hashem. But it is positive that the BATs signs were not put up by the camp director as previously and wrongly inferred.

Those number have proved to be exaggerated (and may have even come from RUOC who said they counted 15 busses). They spoke to the bus company to be sure. (In one article). It’s not such a large camp in general. Beds were counted by officials. There are no 900 campers on either campground.

Here is the source:
https://riseupoceancounty.com/.....rmont

Why do we choose to believe anti-semetic organizations over our own brethren. I too am guilty.
(They have at least 3 articles on this topic now. The latest is that the Bennington campus will be turned into another Lakewood)

amother

Tue, Jul 14 2020, 6:32 am

amother [ Blue ] wrote:

If a hotel is above capacity it is a fire hazard.

There are 350 campers in a hotel with 300 rooms and a capacity over 600. That doesn’t sound like a fire hazard.

amother

Blue

Tue, Jul 14 2020, 6:38 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

There are 350 campers in a hotel with 300 rooms and a capacity over 600. That doesn’t sound like a fire hazard.

Ok so there is nothing to worry about and a fantastic opportunity for the camp to do a Kiddush Hashem. Why publicize a potential broigas here when there is none? The BATs link you sent showed that local walkers are happy. If something untrue gets reported in the newspapers it can be investigated and refuted as has been done. 🤷‍♀️

I know of another camp in Vt and logged onto this thread to see if it was about that. I hadn’t even heard about this camp or the Vt articles until you publicized it.

amother

Tue, Jul 14 2020, 6:45 am

amother [ Blue ] wrote:

Here it is the talk of the town because many kids go. People are worried it may be closed down.
My parents heard about it on the news and wanted to know if kids were ok.
And there are other potential issues. The owner would like to buy the campus and is in contract and RUOC is trying to get involved to prevent it and scare the neighbors. At least town officials are starting to realize what they are.

amother

Babypink

Tue, Jul 14 2020, 7:27 am

According to the article here, it is being dealt with very pleasantly: https://www.wcax.com/content/n......html

Why stoke fears of anti-semism where there are none?

amother

Orange

Tue, Jul 14 2020, 8:08 am

You may not know the entire story but for one many Jewish camps operate as not for profits due to religius education and save on taxes; however, when operating as a hotel or boarding house they lose the tax exempt status. Their are also zoning implications and a load of other stuff but that usually won't be pursued since any zoning hearing will take too long and summer will be over.

I know many local municipalities are frustrated by the behavior they are seeing (I've been cc'd in emails) but are instead letting it go because most action will take longer than the summer.

It also sets a precedent for not being able to go back to tax exempt status the following year since it exposed their loophole.

amother

Blue

Tue, Jul 14 2020, 8:28 am

amother [ Orange ] wrote:

Well, if camps went out of their way to find loopholes to operate vs strictly following legal protocols, I guess some consequence of this is inevitable. 🤷‍♀️

I really hope that this doesn’t prevent future visits to Vt for the rest of the (IMHO smart) camps that decided to not run this year.

amother

Tue, Jul 14 2020, 9:40 am

amother [ Orange ] wrote:

This camp charges $1300 total for sleepover camp. They are making no profit. There are no loopholes.
Many kids come from poorer families and pay even less.

amother

Orange

Tue, Jul 14 2020, 9:43 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

This camp charges $1300 total for sleepover camp. They are making no profit. There are no loopholes.
Many kids come from poorer families and pay even less.

You realize when operating there are taxes and fees involved that are waived for not for profits. Same goes for camps that own their grounds. If a tax exempt use is using them, property taxes are waived. That's not the case for a hotel or residence. It's not just about IRS returns lol.

amother

Tue, Jul 14 2020, 9:45 am

amother [ Orange ] wrote:

Religious boarding schools can be non profit and tax exempt. All dorming yeshivas are.
How is diff then Christian retreat - lehavdil.
They pray multiple times a day. Have religious instruction. Pray before and after meals. Sing religious songs. Etc.

amother

Orange

Tue, Jul 14 2020, 9:50 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Religious boarding schools can be non profit and tax exempt. All dorming yeshivas are.

A hotel is not a dorming Yeshiva without a special use permit (which it technically can apply for before a board, but that will take longer than one summer). I'm talking about actual factual things that are going on now. Also, keep in mind the many camps that operate in PA every summer. They need to renew their permits annually or every other year. Well guess what is going to happen when they ask for a camp permit next year after having operated as a hotel this year? Yeah... there will be answers. I'm not making this stuff up. I've been in meetings about this for over a month now and large camps are accepting the fee as a service to the klal but I don't know what the small ones who did not think it through will do..

amother

Tue, Jul 14 2020, 9:52 am

amother [ Orange ] wrote:

In this story This camp is not acting as a hotel. It’s a regular camp that rented a holiday inn. For a religous Retreat/camp. It doesn’t own the hotel.
How does that make it not non profit.

(Not all camps are non profit. It looks like the ones that are moved. But many that stayed and became retreats are for profit camps)

amother

Blue

Tue, Jul 14 2020, 9:59 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

This camp charges $1300 total for sleepover camp. They are making no profit. There are no loopholes.
Many kids come from poorer families and pay even less.

There is a loophole. NYers going to Vt when camps are not allowed in NY is a loophole.

Many even poorer families never get to send their kids to camp.

amother

Tue, Jul 14 2020, 10:14 am

amother [ Blue ] wrote:

There is a loophole. NYers going to Vt when camps are not allowed in NY is a loophole.

Many even poorer families never get to send their kids to camp.

What is the loophole? They are planning on opening every year in Vermont if they can buy the college and the sale goes through. In a non covid year it can House double the number of campers.

And I don’t get your point. Some poor kids don’t go to camp so these kids should be punished and also not go?
My co workers pay way more then this for day camp locally.

amother

Blue

Tue, Jul 14 2020, 10:31 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

I mean at the moment, camps are not allowed in NY. NYers who go to another State potentially putting people of that State at risk of Covid, are indeed using a loophole. I am talking about this year specifically.

In the future if there is no Covid and they own the Vt property outright then sure, that will be different.

My point is that some people can’t afford day or sleepaway camp for kids. I brought it up when you mentioned “poorer” kids only to point out that to me, a “poorer” kid is one whose parents can’t afford camp at all.

Hashem_Yaazor

Tue, Jul 14 2020, 10:50 am

I don't consider going to another state a loophole. One of the reasons for not having camp in upstate NY was due to lack of sufficient hospital resources. If other states let because they don't have the same concern, it's 100% ok.

amother

Blue

Tue, Jul 14 2020, 10:58 am

Hashem_Yaazor wrote:

Yes, but Vt has stringent rules about entering the State and quarantine. I am not certain that these are being adhered to strictly. And why should Vt hospitals be overrun with potential albeit minor casualties from States with large Covid numbers. Personally I think it selfish and unfair on Vt residents.

Mama Bear

Tue, Jul 14 2020, 12:19 pm

amother [ Blue ] wrote:

They are in the camp the whole time, that is already quarantine.
NY is not a hotspot. It has the lowest numbers ever. At this point, these kids are not at risk for infecting anyone in vermont. and they are not even leaving the premises. The whole thing is making a mountain of a molehill and a storm in a glass of water.

amother

Indigo

Tue, Jul 14 2020, 12:23 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

This camp charges $1300 total for sleepover camp. They are making no profit. There are no loopholes.
Many kids come from poorer families and pay even less.

That’s not true no one gets a discount. The camp makes money it’s more of a lesser fancy camp and they do less trips. It’s still a profitable business I know the person who owns the camp. The camp is geared for families who can’t afford more and the camp spends less on the kids than another camp that charges more. And parents that can’t afford more are very happy to give their child camp and don’t care for their child to go on a million trips and other things.