Dairy challah then meat shabbat meal. Is this weird?

goodmorning

Sun, Jul 26 2020, 9:05 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

change the shape to what -- anything but a traditional braided challah? I don't make traditional braided challah for shabbats if it's just us. I make small-ish "challah knots." I've been making both parve savory challah knots in the meat oven, and dairy sweet challah knots in the dairy oven. each one is individually wrapped and labeled.

am I good because neither looks like traditional braided challah?

If the knots look the same, it wouldn't be okay but you can switch the style of the knots between the two.

There is a second leniency in baking dairy bread, though, and it is to make a small amount at a time.
If you bake only enough for one Shabbos at a time, that would be considered a small amount that is permissible (see Rema YD 97:1). It would still be a wise idea to make the two types of challos easily discernible, though.

goodmorning

Sun, Jul 26 2020, 9:19 am

amother [ Seafoam ] wrote:

Please elaborate.

I'm not Burlywood, but you can eat dairy and meat in the same meal as long as:

a) You eat the dairy first, and it does not include hard/aged cheeses.
b) You clear off all remnants of the dairy from the table after you finish it, before you bring out the meat.
c) You rinse out your mouth well (hadacha) as well as eating a pareve food to clean your mouth (kinuach) and wash your hands well (netilah).

You may then eat meat.

There are opinions that you must either wait (an hour or a half-hour, depending) and/or bentch, but both are subject to a machlokes haposkim and there are ample opinions to rely on to just switch as above.

amother

Sun, Jul 26 2020, 10:07 am

causemommysaid wrote:

If that's the shape you always make ur bread then no it's not fine.

goodmorning wrote:

If the knots look the same, it wouldn't be okay but you can switch the style of the knots between the two.

What I don't get is why it now matters how *I* always make them. People were saying the issue is whether *someone else* would get confused and mistake my dairy challah to be a meat challah. If I make challah knots for parve challahs and make some other shape for dairy challahs, how is this hypothetical person who is coming in my kitchen -- and doesn't know my "system" -- going to know from whatever other shape I use that it's a dairy challah?

goodmorning

Sun, Jul 26 2020, 10:18 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

It is generally relevant for the people in the household. If you and your family members can tell the dairy bread from the pareve, it is sufficient (unless, obviously, you are mass producing your breads for other people). The idea is to prevent someone eating the dairy bread with meat by mistake, and if I'm not likely to eat your bread all together, you don't need to worry about my understanding of your bread shaping techniques.

amother

Salmon

Sun, Jul 26 2020, 10:46 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

recently, I've been making some dairy challahs (because they're yummy and fun... with various toppings). if we want to use a dairy challah: we make kiddush, have the dairy challahs, then switch out the plates/utensils/etc. and have a meat meal.

is this weird? anyone else do it or seen it? some people have the custom of doing dairy than meat on shavuot, so obviously it's not unheard of two days of the year and is halachically permissible if done properly.

it's just us because of the pandemic, and we probably wouldn't do this with guests due to people thinking it's weird and also the hassle of switching everything out with a big table.

Making dairy challah is halachically problematic, did u ask a rabbi

amother

Peach

Sun, Jul 26 2020, 10:52 am

goodmorning wrote:

False. Unless you're a rav pls dont issue your rulings.

I recently spoke to a rav about this after buying a bread machine and the halacha is not lenient on dairy breads. At all.

amother

Sun, Jul 26 2020, 11:17 am

amother [ Peach ] wrote:

False. Unless you're a rav pls dont issue your rulings.

I recently spoke to a rav about this after buying a bread machine and the halacha is not lenient on dairy breads. At all.

to be fair, I feel like saying "the halacha is not lenient" is a "ruling" in the same way you've scolded someone else for posting a "ruling."

amother

Sun, Jul 26 2020, 1:21 pm

Iymnok wrote:

OP just go a knowledgeable Rav to guide you. You have enough information here to ask a pan educated question and to ask to clarify his answer.

definitely. I just asked him. this thread helped me get more educated to figure out what I really need to know, in order to ask the right question to him.

thanks all

amother [ Denim ] wrote:

The halacha I've learned since childhood is that it's assur.

no offense, but we're not little kids and we're dealing with complexities where there are various nuances and opinions and multiple sub-issues involved. you can't just say "it's assur" without saying what *it* is. are you saying it's assur to ever have dairy bread? what exactly are you even saying?

goodmorning

Sun, Jul 26 2020, 3:03 pm

amother [ Peach ] wrote:

False. Unless you're a rav pls dont issue your rulings.

I recently spoke to a rav about this after buying a bread machine and the halacha is not lenient on dairy breads. At all.

I'm not issuing a ruling. It is an explicit Shulchan Aruch (YD 97:1) that although it is prohibited to bake dairy bread, one can do so if either the bread is made in a different shape so that it is readily distinguishable from pareve bread, or if only a small amount is made so that it will be consumed quickly at one time.

אין לשין עיסה בחלב שמא יבוא לאכלה עם בשר ואם לש כל הפת אסור אפי' לאכלה לבדה ואם היה דבר מועט כדי אכילה בבת אחת או ששינה צורת הפת שתהא ניכרת שלא יאכל בה בשר מותר

Translation, courtesy of sefaria:
One may not knead dough with milk, lest one come to eat it with meat. If one did knead it that way, the whole loaf is prohibited even to eat alone. If it was a small quantity that can be eaten in one sitting, or its shape is unusual so it will be recognizable that it shouldn't be eaten with meat, it is permitted.

Personally, I only make pareve bread, but it isn't "lenient" to say that if the bread is baked in a special form so that it will not be confused, it is permissible to make it dairy.

amother

Ginger

Sun, Jul 26 2020, 4:50 pm

I don't know about "weird"--well, ok, I confess I do find it weird, but don't let my prejudices guide your practices. Valid concerns about possible mixups aside, I would find the whole switching-denominations business cumbersome and a lot of unnecessary work. AYLOR. If he says it's ok, and you don't mind unnecessary work, go knock yourself out. I try to minimize unnecessary work as there is already more than enough necessary work to keep me occupied and out of trouble.

malki2

Sun, Jul 26 2020, 5:01 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

I don’t understand. You mentioned dairy bread in your OP. Then you were told something that you never knew. Now you keep challenging it. Why don’t you just call a Rov and have him explain the Halacha to you instead of arguing back and forth with a bunch of Imamothers?

amother

Peach

Sun, Jul 26 2020, 5:52 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

to be fair, I feel like saying "the halacha is not lenient" is a "ruling" in the same way you've scolded someone else for posting a "ruling."

No. I make no "ruling." It's an ask your LOR kind of thing.

amother

Peach

Sun, Jul 26 2020, 5:55 pm

goodmorning wrote:

I am aware of the halacha having recently discussed it with my rav in depth. OP should speak to her LOR.

amother

Sun, Jul 26 2020, 7:10 pm

okay, our rav said: 1) no need to bentch between meat and dairy (just need to change utensils, tablecloth, rinse mouth, etc), and 2) the dairy challahs need a "heker," but for our purposes since we're not selling them or anything, the heker is for us so WE don't get confused and as long as we can look at them and identify the difference between our parve and dairy challahs that's what matters.