Anyone backing out of sending daughter to seminary in EY

keym

Thu, Aug 06 2020, 1:04 pm

amother [ Wine ] wrote:

I am so with you on this.

My mom sold her diamond bracelet so my sister could go. Which, IMNSHO, is crazy.

Can't understand why their tuition is so bloody expensive

Can't understand why girls can't be just as inspired by teachers here

Can't understand why a girl can't learn to value the Torah life from watching her parents and from seminary in America

Can't understand why a girl can't go for a few weeks if she yearns for the holiness

Cant understand why the seminaries got so hysterical about the Hamodia article (I really could-they're a mafia business)

Which Hamodia article? Is there a link?

#BestBubby

Thu, Aug 06 2020, 1:08 pm

little neshamala wrote:

Agree.

I also know a couple of mainstream, good BY girls who opted out of seminary completely (not due to covid, in the past few years) and are doing just fine for themselves.
The tide is definitely changing.

I also think in the future people in Israel might consider opening "sleepaway camp" style experience for post highschool girls, a couple of weeks of enjoyable experiencing EY type of thing, with tiyulim etc....like this you can still go to EY but for a fraction of the cost and time

I believe there are "sleepaway camps" for post HS girls. They are called Tours and there are many options, from 2 weeks to 6 weeks. Many local seminaries have an optional
two week tour to Israel mid-winter.

amother

Wine

Thu, Aug 06 2020, 1:09 pm

keym wrote:

Which Hamodia article? Is there a link?

For three weeks they had a column discussing seminaries and letters from writers in the Inyan. I found it to be very true.

amother

Pumpkin

Thu, Aug 06 2020, 1:10 pm

PinkFridge wrote:

They had a leadership role.
As far as rabbis, I guess there was the system Yisro set up for halachic issues.

Precisely, and AFAIK, they were not among those judges.

amother

Emerald

Thu, Aug 06 2020, 1:50 pm

mandksima wrote:

I have a lot to say because I genuinely am concerned for every Jew and indifference is not okay in my book. Only moshiach coming can fix all of the differences that divide us. My insistence on something I fully believe when others don't doesn't get me far or help anyone else. I've been trying to convince my close family member from Brooklyn to move to Israel already and it is like we see from two totally opposite perspectives. I consider the US very dangerous physically and spiritually now, especially with Carona, the lowering of moral standards and the rise of anti-semitism and therefore every day that she delays makes me crazy. She doesn't feel the danger like I seem to so I can't convince her to run for her life. Without feeling like it is pikuach nefesh to leave, then all the considerations that are normal to consider before aliyah are discussed. It is very hard to leave under her considerations. She actually really wants to come but needs her criteria met. For me, it's a no brainer, just save your family. Either way, running away from the US is great if you're running to Israel in time for the geula. There are a lot of people like me who really fear these days being outside Israel and the mere fact the borders are closed for most makes it really something to think about. I must ask myself constantly what Hashem wants from us now. Is it enough to want moshiach or do people have to make the physical start of going to Israel? It seems that is where we differ. I believe the yearning for moshiach has to be there for everyone and if it is impossible to come at the moment, one obviously has to stay put but if able, every Jew should come to Israel. Since young adults have the option whereas adults and families don't unless they make aliyah, it seems so clear to me to at least send the sem and yeshiva kids. Sometimes the children bring the idea closer to the parents once they are here and the families can follow. But , as I've been reminded, this belief is not universal among the Orthodox.

I don't like the way that seminaries have become an industry. It's a shame that is has turned into such a business. There are places for baale teshuva like Neve Yerushalim or Ohr Sameach for men that you pay when you can but the most important thing is to go and grow and learn. There should be more yeshivish places that are laid back like that too. Not everyone is doing it for the profit but it does seem like most do. To skip Israel though is so sad to me. Every person's soul has a deep connection to EY as Hashem made us like that. In order to access it, one needs to experience it. There are so many Jews from countries around the world who's greatest wish is to be able to go to Israel someday. To think that Moshe rabbeinu begged Hashem and was denied is a reflection of the required desire. For Americans to brush it aside because girls don't need it and do fine without it is so sad because that may make them miss their necessary connection and if Moshe wanted it so badly, why don't we all? Maybe the connection will come later but it is so much harder to go on a visit once you have a family and it would never be for a year which helps you get a full taste of the experience. I have friends who never went and I don't think they understand at all what they have missed out on. They don't crave it in their heart in the same way and they don't grasp the holiness that you can feel today even without the geula. It's not just another country to tour and visit on the map. It is our soul's home on Earth and the unity felt in a land full of Jews is so different than anywhere else.

So, I rarely do this, but your post left me no choice.
Im going to toot my own horn. Loud.
I did not go to Israel for sem. In fact, I didn't go to seminary at all. Being that I was a straight A student, all the teachers and principals in my mainstream NY bais yakov school were having massive conniptions, bit I held my ground because I just felt it wasnt for me.
I was very studious, very academic, very spiritual, and grew A LOT in highschool. I really found myself. And I decided that hey, I was done. No need for even more schooling when my highschool had done such a good job.
In fact, in 12th grade I already decided I wanted to marry someone who was learning, and that we'd make it work, together, for as long as possible. I also developed a connection with the Rav of our shul, who agreed I was staying home for the right reasons. (I also didnt have the heart to ask my parents to pay for it. Even with grants, the other extra spenditures was just not in their bank account. I didnt feel it was necessary for me to go....how could I ask them?? And with a wedding a few years later IH??)
So.
No sem, no Israel, but. ..(get ready, horn tooting coming)...
I remain very very spiritual.
I talk to Hashem all day. Im not kidding. All day long.
My house BH is a thriving mikdash me'at. We constantly involve our children in taking on new things to work on as a family, like saying brachos out loud (our current project) etc.
We do chessed. We learn Torah.
I listen to shiurim.
I try to daven, when its not at the expense of my children.
I ask Daas Torah. A lot. Not just halacha, but for basic, day to day hadracha on hashkafic questions.
I work on my chinuch, and my shalom bayis.
Im married to a ben Torah, who yes, was learning in kolel for the first 5 years of our marriage, through the support of my job, that I went to school for immediately after highschool.
And no, neither he not his mother had the slightest issue with me not going to sem. And they're a "typical NY family". My decision didnt affect shidduchim, I was one of the first in my class to get engaged.

So BH we're growing ruchniyusdikly, in a Torah environment, in a beautiful frum community....but I didnt go to seminary. I didn't go to Eretz Yisroel until after I was married. And its ok. Its possible to thrive and develop an outstanding relationship with the Ribbono Shel Olam, and a true yearning for geulah, even in chutz laaretz.

amother

Seashell

Thu, Aug 06 2020, 3:00 pm

Disclaimer - I don't work in seminaries but I host a lot of sem girls.

The way I see it this seminary issue is a reflection of the issues in america at large. Everyone needs to do the exactly same thing. Materialism is getting out of control, people can't keep up but also feel like they need to keep up.
I see the difference on the girls year by year - the come less and less mature and more and more entitled. I had one girl in a mainstream sem start the year kvetching how "cheap" her parents are because the "only give her 800 nis spending money a month". The girls used to always offer to help clear the table, help with the kids... in the past 5 years I see it less and less.

Seminary used to be a luxury - if you could afford it you went. Sometimes parents where willing to stretch themselves because they valued the torah and chinuch of ertz yisroel. People should stop sending because of socail pressures - maybe covid will do that.

I know that I would never have been the person I am without seminary. With all du respect to the mechanchim in the US people sacrificing for Torah the way you do in EY ( I lived in LKWD - I never met anyone in all my hs/ es career like I met in Israel). I grew emotionally, spiritually in ways I can't describe. My sem teachers helped me become passionate about my life and not just do things because everyone is.
I wish people would stop bashing them and calling them a mafia - the ones I know are really genuine people - and really are not getting rich.

amother

Seashell

Thu, Aug 06 2020, 3:08 pm

I also think that americans don't realize how much america has changed - every time I go back I am shocked again by the materialism, the focus on gashmiyus, the "frum by rote". It is not the america I grew up in and every time I go back it seems to get worse.
Things in EY are not ideal and not what they where but they are at least 20 years behind mainstream lkwd.
I'm not surprised people don't value EY anymore

amother

Fuchsia

Thu, Aug 06 2020, 3:53 pm

I don't have a diamond bracelet but I would rather send my daughter to seminary then get one.

Chinuch for my kids is very important. But who is spending $50000???? My daughter went to seminary a couple of years ago, it cost about $10,000 with a masa grant. Plus airfare twice in the year to get there and for pesach. We live in Europe so it was maybe $500 a ticket. Maybe she spent $300 or $400 on clothing. Clothing she would have needed whatever she would have done. We didn't go and visit her and stay in a hotel and entertain her friends. Why should we - she was coming home for pesach.

Her seminary was much more about learning then touring Israel. It was out of the way, far from Jerusalem, and they had about 4 off shabbosim a year. She learnt all day plus evenings. Really no time to tour. Two of my nieces are going there this year, I honestly don't think their experience will be so different then my daughters. (IYH)

Ahuva's Mommy

Thu, Aug 06 2020, 3:58 pm

Touro may not be much cheaper than Seminary, but if you are going to go to Touro after, it's another year or half a year depending how many credits you get tacked on to your education.

amother

Pumpkin

Thu, Aug 06 2020, 4:19 pm

amother [ Seashell ] wrote:

100,000%

Even when I was in sem, in 2006-2007, so many of the girls from all seminaries in my year were entitled and immature, it drove me mad.

And yes year by year they get more entitled and less mature.

While I'm not a fan of the kollel lifestyle I never saw anyone making the kind of sacrifices for it, for what they believe, for a simple Torah lifestyle, in America. What is standard here would never fly over there. That is part of what I love about Israel, the simplicity, honesty, and less focus on materialism. It makes me sad to see things slowly changing, I liked Israel as it was and don't think America offers anything to emulate.

amother

Linen

Fri, Aug 07 2020, 1:39 am

amother [ Seashell ] wrote:

Funny, DH couldn’t get over the level of materialism in EY when we were there Pesach 2019 as compared to Pesach 2016. Every eatery advertising serious ‘foodie’ items, FroYo hopping at all hours, boutique stores, and the buildings- whoa! Brand new modern apartment buildings everywhere you turn, no amenities spared. I told him BH people are doing so well and can support all these businesses and buy the new apartments. But it was jarring.

amother

Pumpkin

Fri, Aug 07 2020, 1:54 am

amother [ Linen ] wrote:

LOL a major part of FroYo business is tourists and the Americans who made aliyah. The brand-new modern apartment buildings, most Israelis don't have the money for them, they are geared towards rich Israelis and olim, especially young couples who have parents abroad who will help them pay for it. And people who come once or twice a year but the rest of the year live abroad. The exceptions are the brand-new buildings in yishuvim, where it's cheaper. But trust me no Israeli can afford those brand-new buildings in Jerusalem, it's a really sore spot because as much as it's touted that look the government and city are building so much to help the housing crisis, the truth is that no one can afford those homes, so it leaves us all in the same place as before, just with lots of construction projects that many of us resent (for various reasons).
The boutique stores yes many Israelis buy there but many don't, depends how much the items cost, really. Sometimes they have really good sales and then they cost the same as a regular store, and some people skimp on a lot of other things to have the money for clothes from those stores.
The foodie stuff...a lot of it is aimed at tourists, remember that among the religious community eating out on Pesach is most often not done. But yes Israel is starting to get in on the foodie thing, and there are a lot of restaurants trying to make a living by gaining a foothold in that market.

amother

Peach

Fri, Aug 07 2020, 7:56 am

amother [ Wine ] wrote:

For three weeks they had a column discussing seminaries and letters from writers in the Inyan. I found it to be very true.

I found them very NY-centric and wish I would have written a letter.

amother

Yellow

Fri, Aug 07 2020, 9:49 am

amother [ Pumpkin ] wrote:

While I'm not a fan of the kollel lifestyle I never saw anyone making the kind of sacrifices for it, for what they believe, for a simple Torah lifestyle, in America. What is standard here would never fly over there. That is part of what I love about Israel, the simplicity, honesty, and less focus on materialism. It makes me sad to see things slowly changing, I liked Israel as it was and don't think America offers anything to emulate.

We lived in a Lakewood one bedroom for years. We didn’t move until I was 9 months pregnant with my third kid. I had neighbors who did the same. I wore the same clothes for years and dressed my kids in hand me downs.
I still live very very simply, though I’ve started buying my kids new (cheap) clothes. And plenty of neighbors do the same.
You don’t live here so how would you have a clue what goes on?

PinkFridge

Fri, Aug 07 2020, 10:03 am

amother [ Scarlet ] wrote:

Tuoro is not $30,000 tuition plus it’s two tickets plus tickets and hotel for parents to visit once a year plus taking the girls friends out to eat. The cost of clothes before seminary and going out to eat because seminary doesn’t provide enough food. You
Wish it’s only $30,000 ask any parent who sent it ends up being $50,000

Not all parents visit.
Not all parents bring their daughters back home for Pesach.
Not all kids eat out all the time. And if they need to supplement, they buy food vs. eating out more than the occasional treat.

little neshamala

Fri, Aug 07 2020, 10:11 am

amother [ Yellow ] wrote:

Yeah.I know families in monsey who definitely are moser nefesh for Torah to an extreme level.
I dont think its about where you are as much as it is who you are.

amother

Pumpkin

Fri, Aug 07 2020, 11:09 am

amother [ Yellow ] wrote:

I'm sorry, you must've missed the line where I wrote, very clearly, "I never saw anyone making the kind of sacrifices for it, for what they believe, for a simple Torah lifestyle, in America."
That doesn't mean such people don't exist, it simply means that in the community where I grew up and from what I've seen in other communities, people aren't making such sacrifices.

As an aside, people live simply for all sorts of reasons, it doesn't have to be Torah-motivated at all.

amother

Pumpkin

Fri, Aug 07 2020, 11:10 am

little neshamala wrote:

Yeah.I know families in monsey who definitely are moser nefesh for Torah to an extreme level.
I dont think its about where you are as much as it is who you are.

Absolutely. Yet where you are has a profound influence on who you are.

little neshamala

Fri, Aug 07 2020, 11:18 am

amother [ Pumpkin ] wrote:

Absolutely. Yet where you are has a profound influence on who you are.

100%.
Yet for some reason, a thriving, close-knit Torah-focused community, that is emotionally supportive of each other and encourages people to grow b'ruchniyus can for some reason be discounted simply because it's not EY.

amother

Pumpkin

Fri, Aug 07 2020, 11:22 am

little neshamala wrote:

I'm not a fan of seminary for everyone, and am not discounting anyone just because they're not EY.