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amother
Burlywood
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 Fri, Aug 07 2020, 1:07 pm
I compiled all of OP's posts into one post to hopefully make things more clear because I was also getting confused. Apparently I found a part I had missed where OP said that they weren't actually a few years older than DS but had children DS's age. Anyway, it's all below.
So the story is like this. My son, 17 year old traveled a whole night but hadn't yet arrived to his destination. A friend ( married and a few years older) said he'll take him with his car but can't spoil his wife's vacation so my boy should wait till the evening and he'll take care of him till then.
My son calls me, he's homeless. He said it in a joking way. But the thing is, his friends wife didn't want a "stranger" in her apartment when they went out for an outing.
My question to her is, how can you enjoy your outing with family and food when you know there is a boy sitting on your steps without a chair ( after not sleeping at night) or food , in the heat? Did you ever hear of hachnasat orchim?
But he said he'll take care of him, which in normal senses it means talking him in.
Again, my son was joking about it, he'll sleep the next day he said. I just don't get how a Jewish mom could do this!
Ok. This friend is not newly married, he is a neighbor, that's how they're friends and has kids his age.
Even if she doesn't have extra food in the house as they're on vacation, it's still no reason to leave him outside on the steps.
My son did manage with food by buying fruit in a shop.
Other methods of transportation wasn't possible to the place he was going.
And to the poster who worries about shabbes, that happened yesterday.
Yes. It was planned out. Friend texted him the following: don't worry, we'll take good care of you.
You understand well, but not fully. They are NOT a young couple, but have a few kids. They went out for the day on a outing and didn't want him to be in their house while they are on a trip.
This story took place in switserland in the mountains, where there is no kosher grocery or shul where he could have waited.
They knew when he was arriving, he was in contact with him the whole night by text.
You understand it almost. He arrived before they left the house.
His friend drove him for an hour, which I'm very thankful for. I texted him a nice text and also sent with my son a box of chocolates.
I wasn't there, so I don't know exactly. What he told me was, that his friend wanted to give him a bed of one of the kids, but she didn't want to let him stay there at all.
About food, he had some dry crackers packed for the trip for the next few weeks.
I'm not as worried for my son, again, he joked about it. I'm more upset that my neighbor who knows us well is treating my son as a scary stranger.
I think I wrote everything in the op, besides that it was in switserland where there wasn't somewhere else to stay.
What else do you want me to write? That he's a regular hemishe yeshiva boy? That I do care about him? That he can travel with an organised bus till there, but the last leg of the trip didn't work out so had to wait for this friend. What didn't I write?
| Quote: | amother [ Goldenrod ] wrote:
These are the questions I have:
Were there any friends or adults with him on this organized bus, or was it in the plans for a 17 year old to travel all alone in a strange country?
There were friends on the bus, but continued traveling to a different place.
Was a cab or other transportation considered?
Sure. Public transportation was 4 hours, including 15 min by foot and 4 trains. I couldn't let anyone, do this. I also wouldn't travel like this.
We inquired about a taxi, but couldn't find one.
Was this neighbor's apartment in an isolated area with no other Jewish people around?
No. There are other yidn also staying in that neighborhood. That doesn't help me much.
Did your son clearly communicate to this neighbor that he has nowhere to be the entire day?
Yes.
Why didn't you reach out to the neighbor yourself?
Because he showed me the message that said that he'll take care of him, which I accepted as either talking him in our find a place to stay.
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Depends what you call clearly. He said he'll take care of him till he'll be able to bring him to his destination in the evening.
I agree fully. I feel bad for him for feeling in between the 2 and I also feel bad for her as I know she'll chap what she did and apologise when she comes back home.
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mommy3b2c
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Fri, Aug 07 2020, 1:07 pm
| amother [ Plum ] wrote: | | I really have a hard time understanding why you're so upset at the couple. As a wife and mother, no way I'd let a stranger stay alone in my house if I didn't have advanced notice! If I knew before then by all means, I'll have the place ready and great, but if someone would show up and expect to hang out in my home while I'm out for an entire day I'd ask them to come up with some other plans. These factors like advanced notice, the full situation etc make a difference here. Now based on the OP, it seems the husband may not have realized it's a big deal and offered it. If it were me, I'd have to get the house ready then let him in and I'd be really really upset with my husband for not communicating. |
WT*???? Op said it was a neighbor about seven times throughout the thread. Why does everyone keep insisting it’s a stranger?
Anyway, I think I’m done with this thread. I’m getting to upset. Maybe I’m the crazy one. Maybe it’s completely normal to tell people to wait on your door step for hours.
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amother
Pink
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Fri, Aug 07 2020, 1:18 pm
| mommy3b2c wrote: | WT*???? Op said it was a neighbor about seven times throughout the thread. Why does everyone keep insisting it’s a stranger?
Anyway, I think I’m done with this thread. I’m getting to upset. Maybe I’m the crazy one. Maybe it’s completely normal to tell people to wait on your door step for hours. |
You are not the crazy one. I agree with every post of yours.
Just can't fathom how selfish some posters are saying that it's ok to leave a 17 on the street when they offered to help him
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amother
Periwinkle
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Fri, Aug 07 2020, 1:24 pm
I heard someone once sayong "your lack of planning is not my obligation".
If someone takes him in - great
But many young men/ women think they will just go and something will fall into place.
it does not create an obligation for friend/ wife/ relative to turn his situation around since he didnt carefully plan and got everyones approval in advance
some ppl would be nice to accomodate, but I wouldnt be judgemental for those who are not ready to accomodate such scanarios
I was stuck in such situation with advanced approval, planning. Lady changed her mind, and I was visiting someone in hospital in a different town, was locked out of hostess apt, with my stuff inside. she locked me out. intentioanl. she expoained later she was afraid of someone have a key, and therore locked the inside.
I was sitting on a bench of a bus stop waiting for the morning to come.
Crazy? yes.
Didnt say LH to my mom who was the shadchan with her aquaintce, the hostess.
Didnt tell lady what I was thinkign either.
Tzaar come in all forms. and its hopefully a great Kapara.
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amother
Aquamarine
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Fri, Aug 07 2020, 1:28 pm
| mommy3b2c wrote: | I for the life of me can’t understand why everyone is confused and questioning the details and telling the mother that she is irresponsible. I don’t see how even one of those things matters at all.
Here’s what matters:
*boys shows up at neighbors doorstep
*neighbors say, “sorry, we are on our way out. Stay here till we get back”
That is all that matters. It doesn’t matter if it was prearranged, a complete surprise, a miscommunication, a hot day, a cold day, an irresponsible mom, an irresponsible teen, former neighbors, current neighbors, Switzerland, or Timbuktu....
A boy was left on a doorstep for hours because the neighbors weren’t kind enough to let him stay in their house or help him with other arrangements.
And a bunch of Jewish women all think that’s ok. I wasn’t lying when I said I have tears in my eyes. |
Thank you! I am not believing these responses.
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Reality
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Fri, Aug 07 2020, 1:29 pm
I think the truth lies somewhere in the middle here.
I can't imagine leaving my 17 year old neighbor on my front steps all day.
But I also can't imagine my 17 year old getting into this kind of situation. I would never allow my 17 year old to travel with such vague plans. I would never be ok with my 17 year old leaving his group of travel companions and going off on his own.
If this would happen I would be upset at myself that it happened!!! And I'd be upset at my child for being irresponsible. And I'd be upset that my child was left on the steps all day. But I'd be most upset at myself. A 17 year old is a minor. My responsibility.
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amother
Burlywood
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Fri, Aug 07 2020, 1:34 pm
| amother [ Pink ] wrote: | You are not the crazy one. I agree with every post of yours.
Just can't fathom how selfish some posters are saying that it's ok to leave a 17 on the street when they offered to help him |
As someone who has actually been both left on the street legitimately, and who has also engaged in poor planning for travel as OP's DS, I hardly think OP's DS was in a dire situation. Maybe my paradigm is skewed based on my history, idk. But I'm trying to wrap my head around all this outrage.
He was a 17 year old, essentially backpacking, on vacation, in an unknown town. He didn't have a place indoors for a few hours during the day. Why was he relegated to someone's doorstep? Why didn't he go look around town?
For context, most hotel checkouts are 10 or 11am. If someone is scheduled to fly out at night, it's common to check out in the morning and have your last day of vacation before going to the airport, rather than paying for the hotel room for the day you're leaving. You don't call yourself "homeless" during the day after you've checked out. It's an opportunity to explore. Why would you sit on someone's doorstep?
Also OP said he could've taken public transport but it would've taken 4 hours. Was he waiting for less than that amount of time?
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amother
Copper
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Fri, Aug 07 2020, 1:36 pm
| mommy3b2c wrote: | WT*???? Op said it was a neighbor about seven times throughout the thread. Why does everyone keep insisting it’s a stranger?
Anyway, I think I’m done with this thread. I’m getting to upset. Maybe I’m the crazy one. Maybe it’s completely normal to tell people to wait on your door step for hours. |
Completely agree with your posts too!
No reason given would be a good one to leave this kid - a neighbor's son, and no stranger at all - sitting outside alone. (As if a Jewish boy who IS a stranger doesn't deserve this treatment, but wtva.) This is a resort/vacation town, where he can't just hang out in a shul! And it seems that op is a responsible mom, who knew the traveling plans, but as she said, at the last minute they needed new arrangement for the last leg of the trip. That happens! And why would she worry if she knew the neighbor had said he would take care of him? I would be calm and not call to interrogate the neighbor on what "taking care" means precisely!
So what reason could there be? The villa is messy? Who cares! There's internet access/TV and you don't "trust" the boy? Stop taking responsibility for his ruchnius and take care of his physical needs! You didn't know your dh had agreed to let him hang out in the house? Well you know now! You don't have new linen on your child's bed? Trust me, the kid doesn't care!
I want to believe the woman has a good reason I simply can't comprehend, but I hope people understand that this is not NORMAL behavior. Honestly, how could anyone enjoy 1 minute of the day's outing, knowing there's a 17 year old sitting outside their home, when he could have been inside, catching up on his sleep, using the restroom, taking a drink, etc.
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Genius
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Fri, Aug 07 2020, 1:39 pm
| amother [ Copper ] wrote: | Completely agree with your posts too!
No reason given would be a good one to leave this kid - a neighbor's son, and no stranger at all - sitting outside alone. (As if a Jewish boy who IS a stranger doesn't deserve this treatment, but wtva.) This is a resort/vacation town, where he can't just hang out in a shul! And it seems that op is a responsible mom, who knew the traveling plans, but as she said, at the last minute they needed new arrangement for the last leg of the trip. That happens! And why would she worry if she knew the neighbor had said he would take care of him? I would be calm and not call to interrogate the neighbor on what "taking care" means precisely!
So what reason could there be? The villa is messy? Who cares! There's internet access/TV and you don't "trust" the boy? Stop taking responsibility for his ruchnius and take care of his physical needs! You didn't know your dh had agreed to let him hang out in the house? Well you know now! You don't have new linen on your child's bed? Trust me, the kid doesn't care!
I want to believe the woman has a good reason I simply can't comprehend, but I hope people understand that this is not NORMAL behavior. Honestly, how could anyone enjoy 1 minute of the day's outing, knowing there's a 17 year old sitting outside their home, when he could have been inside, catching up on his sleep, using the restroom, taking a drink, etc. |
I would imagine that a 17 yo capable of traveling to a distant country independently graduated the term “kid”.
Adults can take care of themselves, kids can’t.
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amother
Aquamarine
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Fri, Aug 07 2020, 1:45 pm
| amother [ Copper ] wrote: | Completely agree with your posts too!
No reason given would be a good one to leave this kid - a neighbor's son, and no stranger at all - sitting outside alone. (As if a Jewish boy who IS a stranger doesn't deserve this treatment, but wtva.) This is a resort/vacation town, where he can't just hang out in a shul! And it seems that op is a responsible mom, who knew the traveling plans, but as she said, at the last minute they needed new arrangement for the last leg of the trip. That happens! And why would she worry if she knew the neighbor had said he would take care of him? I would be calm and not call to interrogate the neighbor on what "taking care" means precisely!
So what reason could there be? The villa is messy? Who cares! There's internet access/TV and you don't "trust" the boy? Stop taking responsibility for his ruchnius and take care of his physical needs! You didn't know your dh had agreed to let him hang out in the house? Well you know now! You don't have new linen on your child's bed? Trust me, the kid doesn't care!
I want to believe the woman has a good reason I simply can't comprehend, but I hope people understand that this is not NORMAL behavior. Honestly, how could anyone enjoy 1 minute of the day's outing, knowing there's a 17 year old sitting outside their home, when he could have been inside, catching up on his sleep, using the restroom, taking a drink, etc. |
This! Some of these replies are so preposterous. You have “private” things just lying around? What are you afraid he will do to your home? This is a neighbor, not a stranger. My God. Even if it were an adult, I would gladly let them stay. People are so self absorbed, it’s unbelievable.
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Blessing1
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Fri, Aug 07 2020, 1:47 pm
| amother [ Pink ] wrote: | You are not the crazy one. I agree with every post of yours.
Just can't fathom how selfish some posters are saying that it's ok to leave a 17 on the street when they offered to help him |
We still know too little details about what actually happened to make assumptions that the family is bad and selfish. What I'm seeing is an irresponsible mom letting a 17 year old travel all alone overseas without definite plans and without knowing where her son will be staying. We don't know the other side of the story as OP has not communicated with the people that were supposedly supposed to host her son. We know to little to be bashing and blaming the family. If a 17 year old can travel all alone, he should be able to figure out what to do with afew extra hours.
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OOTforlife
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Fri, Aug 07 2020, 1:52 pm
If the woman had posted here, I would have advised her that she should let the boy come in and stay, unless she had some specific concern. But SHE DIDN'T POST HERE.
Because the host isn't asking for advice, many people are properly advising the GUEST (or the guest's mother) to lower the guest's expectations.
People do this all the time on advice forums and it drives me nuts. They conflate advice given to the host with advice to the guest. The two do not need to line up. In other words, just because the host should do X, doesn't mean that the guest should expect X.
The host should be the one who gets advised to be generous with hospitality. And the guest should be advised to have low expectations for hospitality.
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amother
Burlywood
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Fri, Aug 07 2020, 1:54 pm
| OOTforlife wrote: | If the woman had posted here, I would have advised her that she should let the boy come in and stay, unless she had some specific concern. But SHE DIDN'T POST HERE.
Because the host isn't asking for advice, many people are properly advising the GUEST (or the guest's mother) to lower the guest's expectations.
People do this all the time on advice forums and it drives me nuts. They conflate advice given to the host with advice to the guest. The two do not need to line up. In other words, just because the host should do X, doesn't mean that the guest should expect X.
The host should be the one who gets advised to be generous with hospitality. And the guest should be advised to have low expectations for hospitality. |
Thank you so much for framing it this way.
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amother
Powderblue
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Fri, Aug 07 2020, 1:55 pm
Additionally it is easier to look to blame others when deep down you know you share or even completely own the blame.
So many details were left out I suspect because they wouldn't necessarily reflect well on op and her son's lack of planning. What she described as planning was way too casual for his safety and it's easier not to admit that to youself. She is lucky he got to his destination safely in the first place because this whole trip sounds like it's been proceeding by the seat of his pants.
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Reality
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Fri, Aug 07 2020, 1:57 pm
| Blessing1 wrote: | | We still know too little details about what actually happened to make assumptions that the family is bad and selfish. What I'm seeing is an irresponsible mom letting a 17 year old travel all alone overseas without definite plans and without knowing where her son will be staying. We don't know the other side of the story as OP has not communicated with the people that were supposedly supposed to host her son. We know to little to be bashing and blaming the family. If a 17 year old can travel all alone, he should be able to figure out what to do with afew extra hours. |
I think a lot of people posting don't have older teen children. If they did they would know 2 things:
1. Your older teen is still your responsibility and it's not normal to allow them to travel unsupervised.
2. If they are so unbelievably independent then he's not a kid and can take care of himself.
You can't have it both ways. A parent can't allow their child freedoms that are allowed to adults and then be mad that other people treated that child like an adult!
That being said, I can't imagine leaving anyone on my front steps all day long. But I really don't think the OP has the right to be angry at these neighbors. It's misplaced anger in my opinion.
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mommy3b2c
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Fri, Aug 07 2020, 2:23 pm
| genius wrote: | I would imagine that a 17 yo capable of traveling to a distant country independently graduated the term “kid”.
Adults can take care of themselves, kids can’t. |
Ok. Let’s change the story. Your 34 year old neighbor shows up on your doorstep and asks for a place to stay for a few hours. You say, “No. wait on the steps for a few hours till I get back.”
That makes the story SO MUCH better!
(Hint: It doesn’t. I was being sarcastic.)
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Blessing1
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Fri, Aug 07 2020, 2:33 pm
| mommy3b2c wrote: | Ok. Let’s change the story. Your 34 year old neighbor shows up on your doorstep and asks for a place to stay for a few hours. You say, “No. wait on the steps for a few hours till I get back.”
That makes the story SO MUCH better!
(Hint: It doesn’t. I was being sarcastic.) |
I'm sorry, but not letting an adult that arrives at your home unannounced stay in your empty home does not make one a selfish or bad person. A responsible normal person doesn't just show up at one's home and expect to be hosted. We don't need to let everyone into our homes. There are hotels in most cities where they can stay. An adult that travels alone without plans should be able to take care of themselves alone. Not hosting someone that arrives unannounced does not make us selfish horrible people.
If arrangements would have been made that the son would for sure stay there and when he arrived they didn't let him in, then yes, that's cruel. But no definite arrangements were made so OP has no right to be upset at these people. She's responsible for her son, not the neighbors.
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naturalmom5
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Fri, Aug 07 2020, 2:39 pm
| DrMom wrote: | Maybe she didn't even know about it.
Maybe OP's son's friend agreed to this without even telling his wife, who was finally on her long-deserved vacation.
Maybe she had been complaining that she finally needed some quiet time after 5 months of corona-craziness.
I can certainly imagine such a scenario. |
Or maybe...she is just a SPOILED, ENTITLED chick, who was catered too her entire life ..
Dont worry OP, life has a way of humbling such people..
I have seen it happen numerous times
I am impressed that such a young boy has such sparkling middos
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Genius
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Fri, Aug 07 2020, 2:40 pm
| mommy3b2c wrote: | Ok. Let’s change the story. Your 34 year old neighbor shows up on your doorstep and asks for a place to stay for a few hours. You say, “No. wait on the steps for a few hours till I get back.”
That makes the story SO MUCH better!
(Hint: It doesn’t. I was being sarcastic.) |
Doing chessed is a beautiful thing! (I would definitely try to help out said 34yo).
Not doing chessed is not a ghastly thing. It’s the absence of selflessness not the personification of evil.
It was also a learning experience for her young son entering adulthood and he seemed to have taken it quite well.
Relax
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amother
Royalblue
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Fri, Aug 07 2020, 2:43 pm
| naturalmom5 wrote: | Or maybe...she is just a SPOILED, ENTITLED chick, who was catered too her entire life ..
Dont worry OP, life has a way of humbling such people..
I have seen it happen numerous times
I am impressed that such a young boy has such sparkling middos |
I'll play devil's advocate. Maybe OP is just a spoiled, entitled chick who was catered to her whole life, and doesn't know how to accept the word no, not now, this time it doesn't work.
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