5 Year old DS not afraid of punishment

amother

White

Fri, Aug 14 2020, 4:52 pm

keym wrote:

I do it. Very effectively. But I don't call it timeout. I call it "cooling off" "time alone" or "cool down period".
When my teens are getting obnoxious, heated up, fighting with each other, or belligerent, I tell them that I need them to go to their room to cool off until they can be civil. If they refuse, then I exit the room and remove the other children from the room until teen calms down.
Not with a timer though.

But she said that for teens she "extends" the timeout time. It sounds quite funny reading it.

amother

Seafoam

Fri, Aug 14 2020, 4:53 pm

#BestBubby wrote:

Torah makes it clear that punishment is appropriate.

Hashem also rewards and punishes.

Also the government punishes (fines, jail).

Bosses reward (raises) and punish (fired)

Kids should learn this concept of Reward and Punishment.

Bubby, fugetuboutit. This is the young generation, the newer parents. They don't punish, raise their voices or threaten a child. There's a reason the youth looks the way they look like today.

{ducking}

amother

Fri, Aug 14 2020, 4:59 pm

It actually makes me smile to see so many contradictory opinions here. I can definitely use parenting classes. I already took some in the past but I probably need a refresher. It’s not like there’s a class for every scenario in life.
I didn’t feel it’s wrong to slap on the hand if they did something terrible. Not talking about bruising them up ch”v. I don’t do it often or for anything other than behaviors that are either dangerous or damaging.
Time out I never did. I just don’t like the idea of locking a child away even for a minute. Given the choice I’d rather get a slap on my hand than a closed door.
Again everyone is entitled to their opinion and I appreciate all replies.
For the one who asked how he behaves in school. His morahs love him and always repeat what cute shtick he does and says.
I guess in a classroom setting he doesn’t get a chance to do real trouble. He’s a smart inquisitive fun loving child, I just wish he’d be a little more afraid (gasp, afraid) of consequences. I’ll try some of the great suggestions I got here.
Thanks all.

amother

Fri, Aug 14 2020, 5:07 pm

amother [ White ] wrote:

Have you ever had him evaluated? I think that playing with water, destroying siblings crafts, or flooding the house is not appropriate 5 year old behavior, it's more toddler like behavior. Is he impulsive as well? Does he do other dangerous things? Some kids just have no fear and it can be a bit scary. These kids need to be watched like a hawk. When he does something wrong, try not to yell and slap and try to find consequences that are age appropriate and he'll be upset about. He goes on the street, he stays inside. He breaks his siblings things, he either fixes it or you take away something from him. If he floods the house, he cleans up the mess or goes to bed early with no bedtime story. You can say that if you behave like a baby, you get treated like a baby and go to bed early. Even if you think these consequences don't bother him, deep down it does. The main thing is to be consistent so he see's you mean business. Timeout for afew minutes is not the end of the world.
Maybe create a chart for good behavior? Or you can do a jar and every time he behaves put something (a penny, jelly bean...) into the jar and when he gets in trouble, remove one from the jar. When he gets a certain amount, he gets a reward.
How is his behavior in school?

Yes, this.
And you’re right sometimes I feel like he’s still in the terrible 2 stage.

QueensMama

Fri, Aug 14 2020, 5:09 pm

amother [ Seafoam ] wrote:

The youth I know are kind and responsible and much more emotionally healthy and aware then my generation was as kids. I'm pretty impressed with the youth of today, actually.

keym

Fri, Aug 14 2020, 5:13 pm

amother [ White ] wrote:

But she said that for teens she "extends" the timeout time. It sounds quite funny reading it.

You're right. I assumed she was not being literal.
But then again, I don't do timeout in bedrooms.
When they're disregulated or acting up, I sit them down on the bottom of the steps. I say you are acting very angry. We are going to have to sit here until we can calm down. Let's take 3 minutes (for a 3 year old) to calm down. I sit with modeling calm behavior even if they're out of control. After 3 minutes, I'll say do you feel calm now, or do you need more time to regulate. I also teach them to guage their heartbeat and breathing to see if they're calmed down or not.
So my teens, it's an extension of the same thing just without me facilitating it.

crust

Fri, Aug 14 2020, 5:50 pm

I didnt read all replies so forgive me if this was said;

1. A typical misbehavior can be treated by separating without comment. In your case, taking away the pen without any comment or emotion.

2. Punishment is reserved for serious misbehavior which don't happen every day.

3. If you feel you must punish then one punishment is enough.
You said yelling slapping taking away the pen taking away a treat woohooo!! That's the whole nine yards for a silly childish behavior.

4. The punishment has to match the misbehavior.
If he writes with a pen on a chair you can take away the pen. Anything more is an emotional overreaction.

Personally if my child colors on a chair I would rather give the child a paper and say; come let's color here. We want the chairs to stay nice.

My4Jewels

Fri, Aug 14 2020, 6:21 pm

Op I would suggest you also look into a behaviorist. They can come to your home and speak to you, see your child in action and work
With you to help with all of these specific situations. Courses are great but they are generalized.

I do think also Both as a mom and preschool teacher this behavior is not age appropriate. And if you’re saying he does not behave this way in school then I would say there is Some dynamic at home that is contributing to this cycle.

Mama Bear

Fri, Aug 14 2020, 7:30 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Does she do online or phone courses?

I think it's online or available as mp3 and you listen at your own pace.
She is amazing, she really crystallizes why children behave the way they do and how you can fix the problem and enhance your relationship with your children.

https://www.dinafriedmanacadem.....gram/

amother

Vermilion

Sat, Aug 15 2020, 1:57 pm

Sounds like a tough situation. I think you might benefit from a new approach. I’m currently in a live Shefer course in Israel and I’m finding it so helpful. My son used to do things like that (and occasionally still does, but we’re working on it). There’s someone who gives a similar course in English online https://www.shefercourse.chagit.co.il/ . The basis of the approach is that children genuinely want to have “shaychus” with their parents,l and corporate with their desires, but their method is sometimes “confused”. The way they would say to deal with these situations (in my understanding), is to not react the way you would normally react to help “reset” the situation. The “gas” for a kids behavior is their parents explosive reaction- whether hitting, yelling or punishing. Usually, by remaining completely calm, and simply “cleaning up the mess”, does not give the child the negative attention they were trying to attain and makes it less likely they will do it again. He’s not scribbling on chairs and flooding the house because it’s thrilling in its own right, it’s thrilling because of the reaction he gets from you.
Kudos to you for seeking advice. Hashem should help you raise him successfully in the best way possible.

FranticFrummie

Sat, Aug 15 2020, 2:11 pm

OP, I am really concerned that you are letting this child get into so much trouble, free ranging around your "un childproof house". 5 year olds are not a whole lot more different than 3 year olds. They are just taller and a bit smarter. They still don't have an ounce of seichel, and they still need to be supervised at all times.

What is stopping you from watching him, and only parenting him after he's done something naughty to get your attention?

Some day he will actually get into the street, touch a hot stove, or grab a kitchen knife. I can hear it now, "But I can't be everywhere at once!" Are you taking any responsibility at all for the things he gets into? Banging head

He's probably behaving better in school because the teachers know where he is at all times, pay more attention to him, and the classroom is childproofed better.

Please get help for yourself, your child is doing everything he can to reach out to you!

amother

Amethyst

Sat, Aug 15 2020, 8:07 pm

I think that if he's generally well behaved (in your terms) in school, it would be a good idea to have a talk with his Morah. Describe how he behaves at home and see if they have ideas. It could be a combination of a good schedule, no boredom, clear boundaries and expectations etc.
On the other hand, most people let their hair down at home, kids too so if he's feeling stifled in school he might be letting it all out at home.
Was he home during quarentine? Did you see a difference at all?
My four year old is like this, I mix the Nurtured heart approach with Sara chana Radcliffe's and blimi Heller along with love and logic (I never agree with everything someone says).
Clear boundaries, lots of attention and meeting needs and trying to ignore as much as possible (within reason), all my scolding and consequences did nothing. Slowly now he is really taking responsibility for his actions. Also the whole brain child really taught me how some of the things that we expect from our children are really not age appropriate,they may comply at times but that's not really the goal of chinuch is it?

ora_43

Sun, Aug 16 2020, 1:32 am

Some kids just aren't so motivated by fear. Especially bright kids, IME - they can think beyond "mom will be mad" to weigh the risks and the benefit, eg, "mom might catch me and get mad, but OTOH, I'll have a cookie."

It's not always a bad thing. In some times and places, not being easily intimidated is going to be an important skill. You just need to keep him from doing anything too destructive until then.

I'd try a mix of boring punishments, and explaining the consequences of his actions. Boring punishments, because for some kids a parent's anger just isn't so bad as a consequence - it's still interesting, and means they had an effect.

Explaining, for two reasons. For one, because you really do need him to be afraid of things like running into the street. Him being afraid of your reaction isn't working, but you can probably still help him develop a healthy fear of the actual cars. Explain what happens if someone gets hit by a car - that it hurts a lot, that people can be left with lifelong injuries or can even die. Harsh, yes, but he needs to know.

(with my kids, I came up with a catchphrase. "(Kid), how many heads are you going to get in life?" "*sheepish look* Just the one." "That's right. So be careful not to break it.")

And for more minor things, to give him more factors to put into the equation. Right now his thought process might be something like "on the one hand, I want to splash water all over the floor. On the other hand, mom doesn't like that for whatever reason." So you want to add in something like, "if the floor gets flooded too often, it will cost lots of money to fix, and then we won't have money for treats." I'll be honest, getting kids to understand this is a long process. It's not a quick, effective solution, it's just more effective than trying to use fear, which, if that was going to work, it would have worked already.