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Hebrew experts -- why is it EREV Shabbat/YomTov?



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nachlaot




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Sep 21 2020, 10:27 pm
Why do we call the day leading into the start of shabbat / yom tov: erev shabbat / erev yom tov / erev pesach / etc.?

erev means evening, right? we're referring to the day before. why do we use a word meaning evening? the evening starting the holiday would be leil pesach / leil shavuot / etc.

why isn't it called something like lefnei shabbat / lefnei yom tov / etc.?

P.S. bonus heb question on my mind: what's the technical difference between a shiur and a drasha and a d'var torah? the way I see it: drasha is the shul rabbi's speech from the pulpit during shul, a shuir is any sort of formal scheduled lecture by someone, and a d'var torah is a general term that could be anything from a kid speaking at the shabbat table to a rabbi speaking in any form. am I right?
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miami85




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Sep 21 2020, 10:36 pm
I'm no expert, but I believe thursday night is already "erev shabbos" meaning the evening preceding shabbos, I think because shabbos is so important we consider it from the night before. Sometimes there are special laws and customs apply to the "erev yom tov" too--like "Erev pesach" we don't do unnecessary melacha erev pesach.

Shiur is generally more of a "class" with perhaps give and take or Q&A than a "drasha" which is usually a sermon or a speech and a d'var tora is something more of a "layman" I.e. a bar mitzva boy or a girl at a shabbaton gives a "dvar torah"
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nachlaot




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Sep 21 2020, 10:51 pm
miami85 wrote:
I'm no expert, but I believe thursday night is already "erev shabbos" meaning the evening preceding shabbos, I think because shabbos is so important we consider it from the night before. Sometimes there are special laws and customs apply to the "erev yom tov" too--like "Erev pesach" we don't do unnecessary melacha erev pesach.


yeah I think the entire day (I.e., preceding 24 hours) is erev _____. but "erev shabbos" or "erev yom tov" literally mean "evening of" not "the evening before." it's not "erev lefnei shabbat" or "erev lefnei pesach."

Quote:
Shiur is generally more of a "class" with perhaps give and take or Q&A than a "drasha" which is usually a sermon or a speech and a d'var tora is something more of a "layman" I.e. a bar mitzva boy or a girl at a shabbaton gives a "dvar torah"


is a drasha anything other than a sermon from the pulpit in shul during/after services? if a rabbi gives a speech on a tuesday night, isn't that simply a shiur -- but not a drasha?

and cant a d'var torah be used for non-laymen, like a short post-meal talk by the rabbi or a learned person at his shabbat table?
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miami85




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Sep 21 2020, 11:03 pm
nachlaot wrote:
is a drasha anything other than a sermon from the pulpit in shul during/after services? if a rabbi gives a speech on a tuesday night, isn't that simply a shiur -- but not a drasha?

and cant a d'var torah be used for non-laymen, like a short post-meal talk by the rabbi or a learned person at his shabbat table?


I think drasha is usually longer and to a bigger audience-and more of a "giving over" format like "lecture" vs. a lesson. Yes a rabbi can give a "dvar torah" as well but usually shorter and less learned. kind of the English equivalent of a "speech" you can give a 5 min speech or an hour long "speech". The other day my kid asked me what the difference between a pillar and a column. It was erev yom tov so I didn't have a chance to look it up. I'm sure there are nuances to each one but yea they are essentially the same thing.
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sub




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Sep 21 2020, 11:10 pm
Drasha= sermon on any subject, usually lengthy
Shiur= lesson or class in any subject
Dvar torah= a short Interesting Comment on tanach. Usually on parsha.
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perquacky




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Sep 21 2020, 11:50 pm
It seems to mean the same thing in English.

December 24 is Xmas Eve. December 31 is New Years Eve. Although that same distinction isn't made for the day before other secular holidays.
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nachlaot




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Sep 21 2020, 11:58 pm
perquacky wrote:
It seems to mean the same thing in English.

December 24 is Xmas Eve. December 31 is New Years Eve. Although that same distinction isn't made for the day before other secular holidays.


The English word "eve" literally means the day/evening before.

The Hebrew word "erev" isn't the same thing as the English word "eve." "Erev" simply means evening, not the day/evening prior.
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nachlaot




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Sep 22 2020, 1:28 am
perquacky wrote:
It seems to mean the same thing in English.

December 24 is Xmas Eve. December 31 is New Years Eve. Although that same distinction isn't made for the day before other secular holidays.


Getting off topic, but Xmas Eve is "a thing" and NYE is "a thing" because they're "holidays" in their own right, unlike non-existent July 4th Eve or Thanksgiving Eve. On XMas eve, people celebrate with family, have festive meals, go to midnight mass, etc. On NYE, people party and countdown the new year until midnight.

In other words, XMas Eve and NYE have their own traditions that are related to but not completely the same as XMas Day and NYD. In contrast, there are no traditions associated with July 3rd or the day before Thanksgiving.
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salt




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Sep 22 2020, 1:36 am
I guess we would just say "erev" means either "evening", or "the eve of".

It's in the talmud already
מִי שֶׁטָּרַח בְּעֶרֶב שַׁבָּת - יֹאכַל בְּשַׁבָּת, מִי שֶׁלֹּא טָרַח בְּעֶרֶב שַׁבָּת, מֵהֵיכָן יֹאכַל בְּשַׁבָּת

So I think it's just a term or phrase.
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WitchKitty




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Sep 22 2020, 1:39 am
Erev Shabbos is written in the gemara, which is why we "call it" that way.
I would think it's the same as saying בעירוב ימיו.
Evening is toward the end. Before night, or before the end. So ערב is toward the end of the preparations for shabbos.

I find it hard to explain in English but in my mind it makes sense.
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nachlaot




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Sep 22 2020, 1:46 am
salt wrote:
I guess we would just say "erev" means either "evening", or "the eve of".

It's in the talmud already
מִי שֶׁטָּרַח בְּעֶרֶב שַׁבָּת - יֹאכַל בְּשַׁבָּת, מִי שֶׁלֹּא טָרַח בְּעֶרֶב שַׁבָּת, מֵהֵיכָן יֹאכַל בְּשַׁבָּת

So I think it's just a term or phrase.


Interesting. So, in that context, b'erev means "on the eve of" rather than "the evening of." This is Aramaic, though. Is this just a term? Can erev mean "the eve of" in Aramaic or Ancient Hebrew? In modern Hebrew, can it even mean that?
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salt




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Sep 22 2020, 2:36 am
nachlaot wrote:
Interesting. So, in that context, b'erev means "on the eve of" rather than "the evening of." This is Aramaic, though. Is this just a term? Can erev mean "the eve of" in Aramaic or Ancient Hebrew? In modern Hebrew, can it even mean that?


Depends on the context.

"Ba'erev, ani ochel shnitzel" - means, "in the evening I eat shnitzel"
But "be'erev shabbat ani ochel shnitzel" - means "on shabbos eve I eat shnitzel" -
both are Hebrew, and you understand depending on the context.

Both are Hebrew, not modern Hebrew, erev meaning "evening" is in the Torah - and erev meaning "eve" is in the talmud - as I quoted above.

And both are used in spoken Hebrew today. Most modern Hebrew words come from ancient Hebrew.
I don't think it's Aramaic.
Just googled what is Aramaic for Erev Shabbat, and I found מַעֲלֵי דשַׁבְּתָא. Anyone know if that's right?


Last edited by salt on Tue, Sep 22 2020, 4:10 am; edited 1 time in total
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FranticFrummie




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Sep 22 2020, 2:46 am
Erev - getting dark, but before candle lighting.
Leil - after candle lighting, halachically a new day.
Motzei - after havdallah, halachically a new day.

It's confusing to Westerners, because the secular world counts days that start at midnight, or in general terms from sunrise to sunset as being a "day" in a more casual sense.

As for the words for speech or classes, sometimes they are interchangeable. Hebrew has a lot of words that can mean many things, depending on context. In a Hebrew to English dictionary, the Hebrew side is always a lot thinner. Hebrew doesn't exactly have a big thesaurus! Study

My Ulpan teacher said that "Ivrit is a 'small language' with big meanings". In other words, not a huge vocabulary, but tons of subtleties that depend on everything else that is going on in around it.
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grivky




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Sep 22 2020, 2:57 am
On a separate note, I’ve actually recently heard ״erev” Shabbat used in 3 different ways among 3 different types of people. I hear English speakers saying it to refer to Thursday night/ Friday, religious Israelis to refer to it as Friday evening- meaning Shabbos itself ( they’ll talk about the Friday night seuda as “seudat erev Shabbat), and I’ve heard a secular Israeli refer to it as “Saturday evening”. In the winter it can be motzei shabbos and in the summer it’s still shabbos.
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etky




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Sep 22 2020, 6:44 am
Erev in Modern Hebrew is also used to mean "in the time leading up to" an event, not just as in the time of day or in relation to the following day.
For example, ערב כניסתם של בני ישראל לארץ כנען
or
ערב נסיעתו של ראש הממשלה לארה"ב
or
ערב גיוסו לצה"ל
etc.
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WitchKitty




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Sep 22 2020, 6:57 am
This link explains some meanings of the word ערב
https://he.wikisource.org/wiki.....D7%A8
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WitchKitty




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Sep 22 2020, 7:00 am
etky wrote:
Erev in Modern Hebrew is also used to mean "in the time leading up to" an event, not just as in the time of day or in relation to the following day.
For example, ערב כניסתם של בני ישראל לארץ כנען
or
ערב נסיעתו של ראש הממשלה לארה"ב
or
ערב גיוסו לצה"ל
etc.

Thank you! That is what I wanted to say.
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zaq




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Sep 22 2020, 12:33 pm
grivky wrote:
On a separate note, I’ve actually recently heard ״erev” Shabbat used in 3 different ways among 3 different types of people. I hear English speakers saying it to refer to Thursday night/ Friday, religious Israelis to refer to it as Friday evening- meaning Shabbos itself ( they’ll talk about the Friday night seuda as “seudat erev Shabbat), and I’ve heard a secular Israeli refer to it as “Saturday evening”. In the winter it can be motzei shabbos and in the summer it’s still shabbos.

The guy who says erev Shabbat is Saturday night is an ignoramus. Many chilonim call it leil Shabbat although leil Shabbat is also used to mean Friday night. Thursday night is no way no how "Erev Shabbat." It's "yom chamishi balayla."

Wanna get even more confused? How about that Mishnaic phrase so beloved of excessively pompous wedding invitations "or le arbaah asar" Literally "light to fourteen," which sounds like daybreak on the 14th but really means motzaei the thirteenth of the month. "Or learbaah asar bodkin et hechametz" means that on the night of the thirteenth-into-the-fourteenth of Nissan you check the chametz, not at daybreak on the 14th, by which time you're probably checking out your korban Pesach and making sure he hasn't developed some sort of blemish overnight.

I hate-hate-hate invitations that give the date as 'or leasarah'. First of all, how many of us have calendars that are arranged by Hebrew month? Most Hebrew calendars are civil calendars upon which the Hebrew dates are superimposed, and most of us write our appointments and commitments as April 13, not 9 Nissan. And even those of us who use the Hebrew calendar exclusively--assuming there are such people--NOBODY is writing down "or leasarah at 7 pm." Thank G-d most invitations outside of EY also have a secular-language side of the invitation that states unambiguously (if overly optimistically), April 13 at 7 pm.
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