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Forum -> Yom Tov / Holidays -> Succos
Inconsiderate Neighbors



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amother
OP


 

Post Tue, Sep 29 2020, 2:06 am
Yes it is Motzei YK so I am trying to find a way to judge them favorably. Maybe they just didn't realize? Or didn't think about anyone else when they made their decisions??? I really am trying but this is just so so frustrating as this neighbor has done similar things before and does not seem to take other people's preferences, desires or needs into consideration.

So here is the basic concept of what happened (I am changing the details so they won't know I am talking about them...). We have a shared backyard with a nice number of frum families. In the past there was enough room for all of us to build our sukkah and be able to walk around the sukkahs. This year Family A bought an oversized sukkah. Probably more than twice the size of their usual one. AND it blocked our sukkah in! No, they cannot switch spots due to size. No, they WONT switch even when they could. In the past they decided it was "their spot" so even when it was easier for us to have it there they refused to discuss it with us if we could put our sukkah there and complained greatly the year we built ours there before theirs. (We basically moved in around the same time so both of us had our first sukkos here the same year). We literally cannot get to our sukkah, let alone carry the baby, food, chairs etc into our sukkah.
"Oh, we thought you would walk around the building to get to yours. Its just the other side" (which they were upset to do previously and made a stink about even the suggestion. They didn't have to do it that year but they want us to figure that out from now on? Because whatever we do this year is "settled precedent" and will be the only option from now on). But we can't do that as there are a couple of other sukkahs there which would block us from getting to ours. We literally are stuck.

Maybe the family on the second floor would let us carry all our stuff up through their apartment, onto their porch and we could rappel down to ours?? Might be hard in a sheitel and skirt though. And Carrying food, a baby and trying to get our other kids down. How can we do soup?
Oh, and making a walk through via their sukkah would never fly. They would be so upset to have two doors and us walking through to wash, to bring food, to clean up...

Now they are making it seem like they are doing us a huge favor by trying to "work it out". You changed the status quo, you fix it. We weren't going to fight you taking the better spot but we really need to be able to walk to our sukkah!!!

I am so frustrated as now all the prep we did before is for naught. And we both have busy work weeks ahead that we can't just spend hours finding a remedy and taking it down and then building it again. I hate feeling this way motzei YK but what can I do? Sukkos is less than a week away and we built our sukkah already!! and my husband and I have to work!!
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shaqued_almond




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Sep 29 2020, 2:31 am
If you're in the same community maybe you can ask your Rav to be an intermediary. This sounds very frustrating
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Goldie613




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Sep 29 2020, 6:17 am
I'm sorry you are dealing with this.

If you are trying to judge Al Kaf Zechus, then try this =

1 - They bought a new sukkah - for them. It was not to intentionally harm you. Maybe they wanted more space to distance, maybe there was a good sale, maybe someone is moving and gifted them theirs - who knows? The point is, it wasn't to hurt you.

2 - They thought you could go around. Nuisance? Yes. Intentionally mean? Most likely not.

3 - You don't have any access. I'm assuming from what you said that they didn't realize that was going to be an issue, and it does sound like they are going to try to think of a solution. Can one of the other neighbors move theirs down slightly so that you can have enough room to get by?

Again, I am sorry to hear you are having a hard time, I just thought that maybe if you saw the other side it might be a bit easier to handle.

BTW, if you were in their shoes, what would you have done? Or what do you want them to have done? Whatever it is, if they do that now, would it help?
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amother
Peach


 

Post Tue, Sep 29 2020, 6:30 am
Hugs!!! I could have written this post- this happened to me a few years ago. I ended up leaving and asked relatives to go to them the whole sukkos despite the fact that I already had all the food in the freezer. I ended up moving and don’t have to deal with them anymore but I am still upset when I think about it. Crying
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amother
Blue


 

Post Tue, Sep 29 2020, 6:32 am
That's what Sukkot placement committees are for...

Take it from someone who lives in basic democratic Switzerland: You would convene the first meeting in January (at the latest), draw a clear map with whose sukkah will be where, where the doors are, where the doors open, how much space is left to pass, etc...

And after many meetings and gathering all the required information, you would hold a vote on the official porch sukka placement map, hopefully unanimously, and whoever goes against the official map is guilty and has to move...

That's how this is dealt with over here...

Of course, there are voices who might say this is overly bureaucratic and requires long-term planning... but the method clearly has its merits...
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amother
Jade


 

Post Tue, Sep 29 2020, 6:53 am
Ugh so sorry!

First step we would swallow hard so we can stay goal focused and positive IY"H and work with them to remedy this problem.
We would emphasize their willingness to find a solution to the problem of access that we do not have.
We would assume they are dealing in good faith and approach them to find a solution that works for you. Naming the positive brings out the positive. We would stay open to any realistic solutions they may present. We would clarify what access means and what we want and work on concrete steps to make it happen.

Many people are getting bigger and/or first time new sukkahs to better meet the challenge of covid.

IY"H this will work amicably and other steps will not be necessary.

Hugs and hatzlocha!
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amother
Apricot


 

Post Tue, Sep 29 2020, 8:37 am
This happened to my sister. She ended up going to her in laws for sukkos.

She was really annoyed. I never thought this could happen to anyone else. People are so rude.
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saw50st8




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Sep 29 2020, 8:43 am
If you switched the two locations of the sukkahs, would both of you have access?

Also, if you can't work it out, I would make sure that your sukkah is up super early next year.
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amother
Sapphire


 

Post Tue, Sep 29 2020, 8:57 am
I’m so sorry you’re dealing with this. I’m dealing with stuff due to the sukkah situation too and it’s really hard. I live on the second floor. In normal circumstances kids should not be able to come up to our bedroom windows to peak in and even worse, bang on them. Due to the sukkas they do and it robs me of any kind of peace and privacy. Drives me crazy. They’ve woken up my baby/kids more than once , and worse.
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FranticFrummie




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Sep 29 2020, 10:10 am
I am so sorry to hear that people are being such selfish jerks.

I would definitely insist on being able to walk through their sukkah, if they insist on blocking you in. It's a logical consequence.

If they throw a fit, get a rabbi involved ASAP.

(You can always have your kids walk through and cough on them. That might get them to want to give you some space. Twisted Evil )
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lilies




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Sep 29 2020, 10:41 am
amother [ Sapphire ] wrote:
I’m so sorry you’re dealing with this. I’m dealing with stuff due to the sukkah situation too and it’s really hard. I live on the second floor. In normal circumstances kids should not be able to come up to our bedroom windows to peak in and even worse, bang on them. Due to the sukkas they do and it robs me of any kind of peace and privacy. Drives me crazy. They’ve woken up my baby/kids more than once , and worse.


I know this isn't helpful to you, but I suffer from this all year round. No privacy. At least no one's knocking on the windows yet.
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amother
OP


 

Post Tue, Sep 29 2020, 10:53 am
So due to Covid we cannot go to anyone for Yom tov. And I want to be able to have sukkos IN MY OWN SUKKAH!! At home!! Should we have to leave every single year because of them?
And should we have to go crazy every year figuring out sukkah placement because of their selfishness? Self centered-ness?
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amother
OP


 

Post Tue, Sep 29 2020, 11:03 am
Goldie613 wrote:
I'm sorry you are dealing with this.

If you are trying to judge Al Kaf Zechus, then try this =

1 - They bought a new sukkah - for them. It was not to intentionally harm you. Maybe they wanted more space to distance, maybe there was a good sale, maybe someone is moving and gifted them theirs - who knows? The point is, it wasn't to hurt you.

2 - They thought you could go around. Nuisance? Yes. Intentionally mean? Most likely not.

3 - You don't have any access. I'm assuming from what you said that they didn't realize that was going to be an issue, and it does sound like they are going to try to think of a solution. Can one of the other neighbors move theirs down slightly so that you can have enough room to get by?

Again, I am sorry to hear you are having a hard time, I just thought that maybe if you saw the other side it might be a bit easier to handle.

BTW, if you were in their shoes, what would you have done? Or what do you want them to have done? Whatever it is, if they do that now, would it help?


1. But they didn't think about anyone else!!! That is the exact problem and when they said they were getting a new one I nicely reminded them to make sure there would be space for others to walk by. "Oh, there will be plenty of space". Now their tune changed and it is "we thought you could go around the entire building to get to yours".
2. They didn't pay attention. They don't pay attention to anyone else. The other side have been the same way for a number of years. They cannot move elsewhere due to structural issues. Say that they use a part of the building for their sukkah.
3. No. As I said the others cannot move and have been that way for years. They will be annoyed too.

And while this year we might figure out a temporary fix (cut back bushes, move furniture... So hopefully we can squeeze by...) no one will help us for years in the future. We aren't planning to move and neither are they. We will be stuck doing all this extra work from now on just so they could be selfishly able to have a super large ridiculously sized sukkah. It also means we could never expand ours either.

They won't discuss how crazy this all this is for us. I am going to tell them that any year they decide to build their huge one they are the ones who must help us build ours AND find a kosher spot that we can actually GET INTO OUR SUKKAH!!
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momof2+?




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Sep 29 2020, 11:14 am
This sounds like something that would make me very annoyed too. The only thing I could suggest is (if I can explain this correctly,) if the neighbours aren't going to negotiate a plan that will make you happy, you have a choice of letting it ruin your yomtov, or not letting it bother you for the sake of shalom. Have something in mind that it should be a zechus for-it will make it more meaningful.

But definitely next year I would have a formal discussion about sukkah location plans before rosh hashana.
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amother
Mauve


 

Post Tue, Sep 29 2020, 1:26 pm
I would get a rav involved. By letting them do this you are definitely setting precedent for the future and it makes no sense.
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amother
Forestgreen


 

Post Tue, Sep 29 2020, 1:36 pm
Can all the neighbors get Together and move the sukka?
Maybe around the other side if the buiding, where they expect everyone else to go?
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SixOfWands




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Sep 29 2020, 1:37 pm
amother [ Mauve ] wrote:
I would get a rav involved. By letting them do this you are definitely setting precedent for the future and it makes no sense.


THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS.

And if you rented or purchased with the expectation of being able to erect an accessible sukkah, contact the landlord or management company as well.
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amother
Azure


 

Post Wed, Sep 30 2020, 12:34 am
amother [ OP ] wrote:
1. But they didn't think about anyone else!!! That is the exact problem and when they said they were getting a new one I nicely reminded them to make sure there would be space for others to walk by. "Oh, there will be plenty of space". Now their tune changed and it is "we thought you could go around the entire building to get to yours".
2. They didn't pay attention. They don't pay attention to anyone else. The other side have been the same way for a number of years. They cannot move elsewhere due to structural issues. Say that they use a part of the building for their sukkah.
3. No. As I said the others cannot move and have been that way for years. They will be annoyed too.

And while this year we might figure out a temporary fix (cut back bushes, move furniture... So hopefully we can squeeze by...) no one will help us for years in the future. We aren't planning to move and neither are they. We will be stuck doing all this extra work from now on just so they could be selfishly able to have a super large ridiculously sized sukkah. It also means we could never expand ours either.

They won't discuss how crazy this all this is for us. I am going to tell them that any year they decide to build their huge one they are the ones who must help us build ours AND find a kosher spot that we can actually GET INTO OUR SUKKAH!!


Why not get a headstart next year and put up your sukkah weeks in advance. Set it up in a way that works well for you, and make sure it's done in a way that they can't mess it up for you. You can build a temporary but obvious path to your sukkah, to set up a boundary for them not to cross.
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