Why am I the only one who minds this?

amother

Khaki

Tue, Nov 03 2020, 9:27 pm

I can understand the feelings either way.

Just FYI as a divorcee, halachically, I was told that my son can only make Kiddush for me once he turns 15 ,- and not 13. As others have mentioned above.

(Edited to correct grammar)

amother

Papaya

Tue, Nov 03 2020, 9:47 pm

amother [ Jade ] wrote:

I have a cousin whose husband was niftar r"l very young, she had a son who was 11 and another who was 6 at the time. She spent every Shabbat after that with her parents so her father made kiddush and then once her boys became Bar Mitzvah they took over. She never made kiddush after her husband was niftar all the years until her boys were out of the house and married and her father passed it was like 30/40 years.

So the first time she made kiddish for herself she was in her 60's. Her husband was niftar she was 37 and she did not know how to make kiddish.

That's a sad situation, but it's hard to believe that she never made kiddush. If you don't go to shul, or come home before your husband on shabbos morning, don't you make kiddush for yourself before eating breakfast?

And for those posters wondering what the Gemara says about women, just know it isn't pretty. Chazal assume that women are mentally defective, impulsive creatures. Those three of four quotes your teachers taught you are cherry-picked and generally out of context.

amother

Tue, Nov 03 2020, 10:07 pm

amother [ Lime ] wrote:

Your feeling is very strange, I was absolutely proud every time my ds had occasion to do any of those for me. What is it that bothers you exactly?

I’m happy for you that seeing your DS make kiddush makes you proud. I am proud of my son when he works on himself or something and accomplishes. There is nothing that DS does to make kiddush (being male, being 13, knowing how to read Hebrew, etc), that he has worked for in any way that would make me particularly proud of him. (To be clear, I am proud of DS for various and sundry things-he is a wonderful boy-but his ability to make kiddush is not one of them).
The way my house has been set up over the years, is that someone in a position of “authority” makes kiddush. Having my 13 year old suddenly be in that position merely because I’m female and he’s male... rubs me the wrong way I guess.
For the people suggesting I make kiddush anyhow or in addition to him... I actually don’t want to take it away from him (I think he’d be upset). I just want it to rankle me less!
Thank you to the posters who relate to how I feel about it, it makes me feel less alone.

amother

Lavender

Tue, Nov 03 2020, 10:17 pm

I think I can identify with that feeling OP. He’s a shnook and I’m the mom, it feels wrong.
But then when I think about it...then what does it mean when dh is home? That he’s nr 1 and I’m the second in command? That he is somehow higher than me and when he’s not around I am the “highest”. That doesn’t sound right. I feel like we’re both nr 1 and in position of authority together, we just have different roles and his involved kiddush. So when he leaves I am still nr1 in my own role, but I don’t have to take over his stuff. So if the kid can say kiddush sure why not...

oakandfig19

Wed, Nov 04 2020, 9:05 am

Frenchfry wrote:

Something about this post really bothers me, but I'm having trouble articulating it. I think it's the words "wrongly so", and "Gemara a reflection" in the same sentence.

Gemara is Torah shebaal peh. Torah is emes, no matter what year we're in. Some things are hard to understand, but that doesn't make them less emes.

As far as my sons making kiddush. It makes me proud too. That's their job as a now adult man.

Personally don’t agree, it’s much more nuanced than that. The Ramban literally said you can beat your wife, would you not tell your son it’s a product of the times? We don’t pasken like that. Much of Gemara is a conversation, you don’t have to agree with everything that’s being said on the path to determining halacha.

CORRECTION: Rambam, not Ramban

Last edited by oakandfig19 on Wed, Nov 04 2020, 11:15 am; edited 1 time in total

giselle

Wed, Nov 04 2020, 9:41 am

oakandfig19 wrote:

The Ramban says you can beat your wife?

oakandfig19

Wed, Nov 04 2020, 10:28 am

giselle wrote:

Instead of hugging me (?!) why not answer my question?

I believe under specific circumstances and under certain conditions, it’s not a free for all pass. Nonetheless basically every one disagrees with him.

amother

Papaya

Wed, Nov 04 2020, 10:58 am

I'm not familiar with anything in the Ramban, but here's the Rambam in אישות כא:י
יכָּל אִשָּׁה שֶׁתִּמָּנַע מִלַּעֲשׂוֹת מְלָאכָה מִן הַמְּלָאכוֹת שֶׁהִיא חַיֶּבֶת לַעֲשׂוֹתָן כּוֹפִין אוֹתָהּ וְעוֹשָׂה אֲפִלּוּ בְּשׁוֹט

He's a minority view, but he is the Rambam, not some obscure person you never heard of.

oakandfig19

Wed, Nov 04 2020, 11:15 am

amother [ Papaya ] wrote:

I'm not familiar with anything in the Ramban, but here's the Rambam in אישות כא:י
יכָּל אִשָּׁה שֶׁתִּמָּנַע מִלַּעֲשׂוֹת מְלָאכָה מִן הַמְּלָאכוֹת שֶׁהִיא חַיֶּבֶת לַעֲשׂוֹתָן כּוֹפִין אוֹתָהּ וְעוֹשָׂה אֲפִלּוּ בְּשׁוֹט

He's a minority view, but he is the Rambam, not some obscure person you never heard of.

This is what I was referring to, you’re right it’s the Rambam.

ShishKabob

Wed, Nov 04 2020, 12:04 pm

amother [ Peach ] wrote:

You are not the only one it bothers. 13 year old boys don't need reasons to think they are superior to their mothers.

What is this supposed to mean? The teen age business?

Frumme

Wed, Nov 04 2020, 1:05 pm

amother [ Papaya ] wrote:

It's entirely plausible that she's never had to make Kiddush herself, especially if she lived very close to her parents/other male relatives. Not everyone holds that you need make Kiddush before breakfast. For example, I was taught that I can eat after morning brachos but not after shacharis unless I hear/make Kiddush. If I don't daven shacharis, then I would not be able to eat anything after the approximate time DH would finish shacharis (until Kiddush). I'd say the situation is rare, but not completely unbelievable.