Seminary info | Imamother

amother

Denim

Thu, Dec 24 2020, 11:19 pm

I know this is probably not useful for the OP here, but someone may want this info in the future.
Regarding Ateres,
First a fact: they're not in Ramot anymore. This year they started in a new, really nice centrally located spot.
Second, my experience with the tracks: I'm very academic type, b"H. I found the classes in the highest track to be on a level that was interesting and stimulating. BUT if you want a lot of "in text" learning, big reports, and busy work, you won't find that. There is some in-text learning, individually/in groups/with tutors, but it's not the majority.

amother

Cobalt

Tue, Dec 29 2020, 5:29 pm

I know that the discussion here about college credit programs for Israel happened a while ago, but just in case anyone stumbles on this thread later on, I work with seminary and college bound girls for a living and here's how all that works:

When a college like Touro or YU has an Israel program, what it really means is that the participating students are Touro/YU students studying abroad for the year- your kid is considered a Touro student even if in actuality she's a student at Bnos Avigayil or wherever. While I don't believe that either Touro or YU will give your kid a scholarship for going to seminary even though technically they're already their student, having your student enrolled in college already and registering as studying abroad means that any money your kid qualifies for through the FAFSA is transferable to seminary tuition. That's why, when you participate in a program like this, you pay tuition to the university, which then pays it to the seminary- because you are getting US federal money to pay tuition at a US university, and then the university is paying study-abroad programs (seminaries) that it's affiliated with.

Now, this is all perfectly legitimate, and many colleges do this with other kinds of study abroad programs. However, it's also ripe for abuse- as in, as mentioned, if a student enrolls in a college solely in order to participate in the program, and then drops out/transfers elsewhere immediately after the Israel year. Is that illegal? Not technically, to my knowledge. Can it really be prevented in small numbers of cases? Not so much. BUT it's a really big deal for the colleges, because the amount of funding that colleges get from the government is linked to the number of students enrolled. It's therefore ripe for abuse at that end, also, with colleges theoretically having an incentive to enroll students in the Israel program to pump up their numbers. Now that is NOT legitimate and is very illegal, and naming no names there have been some problems with schools doing this in the past (not necessarily for nefarious reasons, just maybe without being as careful as they should have been) which is why Touro, for example, mandates that students on the program spend the next semester in New York. While YU doesn't have a specific policy, they also definitely emphasize that their program is meant for students who plan to come to YU in New York. Colleges need to be very careful with this because stepping the wrong way can lead to problems with the government.

cat81

Tue, Dec 29 2020, 7:16 pm

amother [ Cobalt ] wrote:

While I don't believe that either Touro or YU will give your kid a scholarship for going to seminary even though technically they're already their student, having your student enrolled in college already and registering as studying abroad means that any money your kid qualifies for through the FAFSA is transferable to seminary tuition. That's why, when you participate in a program like this, you pay tuition to the university, which then pays it to the seminary- because you are getting US federal money to pay tuition at a US university, and then the university is paying study-abroad programs (seminaries) that it's affiliated with.

Now, this is all perfectly legitimate, and many colleges do this with other kinds of study abroad programs. However, it's also ripe for abuse- as in, as mentioned, if a student enrolls in a college solely in order to participate in the program, and then drops out/transfers elsewhere immediately after the Israel year. Is that illegal? Not technically, to my knowledge. Can it really be prevented in small numbers of cases? Not so much. BUT it's a really big deal for the colleges, because the amount of funding that colleges get from the government is linked to the number of students enrolled. It's therefore ripe for abuse at that end, also, with colleges theoretically having an incentive to enroll students in the Israel program to pump up their numbers. Now that is NOT legitimate and is very illegal, and naming no names there have been some problems with schools doing this in the past (not necessarily for nefarious reasons, just maybe without being as careful as they should have been) which is why Touro, for example, mandates that students on the program spend the next semester in New York. While YU doesn't have a specific policy, they also definitely emphasize that their program is meant for students who plan to come to YU in New York. Colleges need to be very careful with this because stepping the wrong way can lead to problems with the government.

Touro will not give a scholarship for seminary year, even if accepted to the Honors program.

What is the problem? College students transfer all the time after freshman year, why should this be any different.

Any way for Touro to prevent a girl (in their Israel program) from applying & going to another College after seminary year?

amother

Cobalt

Wed, Dec 30 2020, 12:39 am

cat81 wrote:

Yes, that's correct, Touro does not give scholarships for students to go to Israel. What they do instead through the Israel program is provide a way for you to use FAFSA money (whether loans or grants) to pay for Israel, which otherwise you would not be able to do. (You can also use 529 college accounts.)

In theory, you're 100% correct- students transfer all the time. In practice, especially given abuses that have happened in the past and subsequent issues with the government, these programs have gotten more vigilant about preventing this from happening. Touro is the only one I'm aware of with that explicit rule, but honestly I don't know what if any repercussions there are if you attempt to transfer. (Actually, looking at their website it looks like they give you a rebate on part of the Israel option fee if you come to New York the next year, so it seems like they have a carrot, not necessarily just a stick.)

cat81

Wed, Dec 30 2020, 12:54 am

amother [ Cobalt ] wrote:

Can you elaborate on past abuses committed by students.

Doubt the $550 credit for returning students is much of a carrot given annual tuition of $15-20k.

Any other Colleges (besides Stern, Touro, WITS & TTI) provide an opportunity allowing us to use FAFSA money for our daughter's seminary?

susanstohelit

Wed, Dec 30 2020, 8:30 am

cat81 wrote:

I don't know quite enough about the situation to feel confident giving details (it was before I started working in this arena) but a college's Israel program was shut down (I'm not sure if it was by the government or by the school itself after government intervention) because too many students were taking the Israel option and not attending the college afterward, which gave the situation the appearance of fraud and collusion between students, who got US government funding for their year in Israel without attending the institution, and the college, which got US government funding for students who never attended on campus. Most college Israel programs are prepared for a few students each year to transfer after a year- that's not crazy- but they will do their due diligence to make sure that students applying to the school are not doing it SOLELY for the Israel program because they want to protect themselves.

To give context about the $550 credit and why I called it a carrot, YU's program only costs about $750 with no rebate, so it seems pretty clear that the increased cost of Touro's program combined with the rebate is meant to give an appearance of incentive (without actually being one lol). Touro and YU are really the only programs I'm particularly familiar with- I work in a MO school environment which means that Maalot and TTI aren't popular options.

cat81

Wed, Dec 30 2020, 9:11 am

susanstohelit wrote:

In that case, it sounds like Touro would not be agreeable to having students even transfer from one of their schools to another - LCW to LAS, LAS to LCW, HTC/Blitstein to LCW/LAS......

So in your experience none of those MO girls attending Rutgers, U of Maryland etc..... are able to apply to FAFSA now to help with next year's seminary costs?

Are you familiar with any grants/scholarships available for those that don't really qualify for Pell, TAP, MAP programs?

susanstohelit

Wed, Dec 30 2020, 9:29 am

cat81 wrote:

To the best of my knowledge, the only way to take advantage of funds through the FAFSA for your year in Israel is to be registered at an American institution, which is only possible through these kinds of Israel programs. Federal student aid is intended for students studying at American universities, so even if, say, your daughter went to Michlalah, which is an accredited college, to my knowledge she wouldn't be able to get federal funding. There have definitely been Israel programs that have tried to get students who are bound for secular colleges to go to Israel through YU or Touro (YU is a popular option because they don't explicitly state a requirement to continue through to NY on their site, to my knowledge), but the Israel programs shut that kind of thing down very quickly.

The only scholarship source I can think of off the top of my head is MASA, though not all seminaries work with them. I think NCSY had one at some point, but I'm not sure if that's still the case. Beyond that, I'm really not sure, though I know that people will sometimes turn to private or communal funding sources (like rabbis' discretionary funds) if there is serious financial need.