Baltimore vs. Passaic vs. Toms River

amother

Sienna

Tue, Dec 29 2020, 1:26 pm

amother [ Teal ] wrote:

the schools in Baltimore aren't perfect but based on what you say, I think you will be much happier with the education in Baltimore than in Toms River.

I am very happy with the Baltimore schools. My daughters go to Bais Yaakov and my son goes to TA.

Bais Yaakov is very organized and a great education. TA is less organized and a bit less amazing education but my son has so much fun everyday and his rebbis have been soooo wonderful. He comes home smiling every day.

There are other good schools such as Bnos for girls who many are very happy with and TI and Toras Simcha for Boys. TI hashkafically is to the right but many seem happy there. Toras Simcha is between TI and TA and a newer school but people seem happy there too.

If you are looking for more modern, you can look into Ohr Chadash. Lots of happy customers there also. There is also Darchei Noam which is a montesori based school. I dont know much about it.

Daycare and preschools, most are private and unlicensed. The licensed ones are very expensive. The least expensive of the licensed ones are Gan Ruti and Ner Tamid Montesori. They run about $8,0000 for the school year from 9-330. Maybe Gan Ruti is a little less but that was the range last I looked into it. I ended up going with unlicensed.

As for vouchers, dont expect to get them. Only super low income does and there is a waiting list. That is what I have heard anyway.

amother

Sienna

Tue, Dec 29 2020, 1:55 pm

amother [ Lemon ] wrote:

Sienna, I agree with you about the restaurants. But I will only patronize 2 or 3 of them that I feel are clean and have good customer service. I just choose not to go to the others. It doesn't bother me that other people do.

As far as the schools, yes, there are kids who fall between the cracks. But show me a community where this never happens? at least the girls don't have to worry about applying to high schools and dealing with rejection and worry about having no place to go.

I disagree with you about the Vaad. They put out guidelines for hosting etc. But it wasn't meant as a halachic psak.

wow it feels good to be able to complain about the restaurants here. LOL

I literally have only two places I never had a problem with.

I love the schools here. My issue isn't the falling through the cracks. It's the being told to shut up about it.

We can agree to disagree about the Vaad. I think they mean well but their "guidelines" were given oven more as a psak than a guideline.

Hopefully, when Corona calms down, I will be less annoyed and go back to loving the community again.

OP, what area are you looking to move to?

amother

Lemon

Tue, Dec 29 2020, 2:33 pm

As someone who grew up in Baltimore... for years we put up with feeling condescended to and looked down upon. Definitely when we went away to camp or whatever. Being called "Baltimorons" or frum hicks and laughed at for being behind on the latest frum fashions or whatever (though now with social media and so many NYers moving here I guess we are less out of it). So, although personally I don't care, I can see why some people get very defensive when newcomers are vocal about their complaints.

Another thing you have to realize, the Baltimore Jewish community never had the political influence you take for granted in places like NY. So, yes, we could never take government help for granted, we always needed to stay on their "good side" and that is why people here are rule followers and don't want to make waves. Plus, a lot of BTs who naturally look up to Rabbanim and put them on a pedestal and are used to quashing their inner cynicism and wearing their rose colored glasses. And they are naturally horrified when people complain about the community etc.

Just a little bit of background info that might help you understand where these native Baltimoreans may be coming from. (Not me personally, but I get it.)

amother

Pearl

Wed, Dec 30 2020, 10:46 am

amother [ Amber ] wrote:

I am in the same whatsapp and facebook groups you are in. You are not referring to stam people who start being judgy when things arent their way - you are talking about people not being able to badmouth our local places on fb and whatsapp. I know the threads you are referring to and I know what you mean... I don’t think you are representing Baltimore properly here. Firstly, the most vocal person in the nshei Baltimore whatsapp group who was screaming at people who said a word about the food boxes - she is new to town, I’ve known her for her whole life. She is not 100% there, and she was removed from the whatsapp group because of her rants. I am also close friends with one of the admins of the fb group. They have a psak that they are not allowed to allow people to bash our local establishments. They will shut down any negative thread about any place so fast, your head will snap. People are not being judgmental and no, they are not being “Karens”. Everyone is encouraging others to go right to the source with a complaint.

You are wrong when you say Baltimore is a judgmental place and base that on the respect we have for our local places. Your entire proof to your claim that Baltimore is judgmental is how we protect our local places. Thats strange. Baltimore is the LEAST judgmental place I have ever been. No one cares what the other one wears, does, etc. Our rush to defend our own is part of what makes it to special to live here! You have an issue with a school? Tell the admin. You had a problem with pizza delivery? Call the manager directly; do not bash the place on social media and do nothing about it (the same rule applies on imamother by the way!). Do not ruin someone’s parnassa by bashing them. The covid food boxes - 100% no one should be complaining about them in any thread! There is a website and email address for complaints and suggestions and as we have seen, they are listened to and followed! Why does anyone need to open a thread to complain about these things? By the way, I asked my rav if I can even leave a negative Yelp review of a restaurant and was told no. Any negative review must go from me to the manager and no one else. Thats not being a karen and not being judgmental, its following halacha. Which is what the groups you are complaining about and representing Baltimore as judgmental are doing.

If anything, your post PROVES how great it is to live here!

re the bolded-so so important to remember in life!

Busy as a bee

Wed, Dec 30 2020, 11:26 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Just because I didn't mention the job factor, doesn't mean that it's not a big part of the consideration.

I want to know what the expenses are so that I can compare them to the job situation.

Moving is contingent on our ability to find jobs. However, DH may have a remote job lined up, which means that he can work from anywhere. (It's not the type of company that adjusts your salary depending on where you live.) The question is about my job. Yes, that's a big part of the cheshbon, but there was no point in mentioning it here since I don't have questions about it at the moment.

If we move to Baltimore, it will be with the understanding that we will not come in so often.

Baltimore works best hashkafically for us, with Passaic in second. But I think it makes perfect sense to evaluate cost of living as a big piece. We may not be able to plan everything out, but we do need to have some plan as to how it will work. That's why we're doing research!

What type of work does DH and You do?
Both me and my husband work full time but we have flexibility with our hours so I can take the time and go drive a carpool once or twice a week

Busy as a bee

Wed, Dec 30 2020, 11:36 am

amother [ Sienna ] wrote:

I know someone disagreed with me but I still stand by what I said. Most people don't do starter homes. They either buy what they can afford or they buy with the intention to build an extension.

As for the comments about the judginess. Again I love it here. I really do. I like my friends. I like the schools. I like the shuls. However, yes there are a lot of weirdos. There just are. It's not just 5 people on baltimommies and nshai. I have some in my neighborhood WhatsApp and on the food groups etc. I'm also not a fan of shutting down people who have a complaint. Maybe if the Baltimore establishments weren't so protected by the Vaad they would actually make an effort to provide decent food and service. The restaurants here are abysmal and there is a reason for it. No one is allowed to complain cuz they get shut down. Yes it's beautiful in regard to lashon harah but it's not beautiful in regard to the free market. I once found a fly in my salad at a local establishment. The response from the restaurant was "what am I supposed to do about it" another restaurant was very rude to my mother when she was visiting. I spoke to the owner and they didn't care. Is this a reason not to live somewhere? Of course not. But coming from NY where local businesses actually have to work hard to keep your business expect huge culture shock. Also schools, I happen to be thrilled with my children's school but lots of people have lots of issues. The school doesn't address those issues often. They have no recourse because they aren't allowed to talk publically. It's painful for a mother to watch their child suffering and have nowhere to turn and be yelled at for even voicing these concerns. Again unity is beautiful but sometimes there is too much rabbinic and community overreach.

As for covid, I think the Vaad really overstepped. Make rules in shul. Make rules in schools. Make rules in Jewish stores. But get out of my home please. I did not ask for a psak. Don't tell me who I can or cannot host in my own private home. Don't put out a letter telling me to vaacinate. Youre rabbis not doctors.

Again I love Baltimore and it's a great place. But come prepared and expect as a NYer, the style is different here.

As for paid carpool, the price is usually about 65 to 75 dollars per month per direction per child. There are drivers but they fill up fast and there are more children who need drivers than drivers available. Carpool needs to be worked on months in advance and people are very specific about where they are willing to drive.

Also crime. Baltimore is very high crime. Better to move to Greenspring area or deep in the community rather than Park Heights area. It's more expensive but safer.

Ok so as a fellow Baltimore person who 1. moved from lakewood and 2. is originally from NY I want to cover the items you talked about.

1. Alot of people do starter homes in the younger families moving here. Bancroft village, Heather ridge, and I know of alot of people doing condos to start until they find a house and neighborhood they like.

2. Yes there are def really "baltimory" people all over - that being said I really barely interact with them as a young family and when I see their messages I just ignore it. Yes my husband REFUSES to daven at the aguda cuz he can't handle the overstepping there but overall it doesnt affect my day to day life. Please, in lakewood there were plenty of overstepping the vaad of lakewood did for years before lakewood got too big.

3. Food areas - I'm a huge foodie and find that I overall am happy with most of the food places. The new thai place is great. chef dans is amazing. We love serengeti and while def not as many options, there are options. I have family in cleveland and detriot and passaic and we leave them all behind.
In addition, I've had issues with taam thais food - called them up and they handled it so gracefully (mistakes in my order once). Chef dan once sent a pizza that the driver held upside down and the cheese all stook to the top of the box - messaged them and right away a refund.

4. Covid - I personally think the Vaad was really amazing. Yes I didnt follow everything they said TBH but overall I did and you know what, we have had anyone sick in my family.... My kids never had to quarintine yet and overall considering the circumstances I think they did a great job giving guidance in a hard time.

5. Paying drivers - I've never had to yet so don't know pricing but it's not easy that I def agree with. In normal times there's an MTA bus specifically for taking the boys to the yeshivas if your kids are old enough.

6. I think the crime thing is funny cuz I've seen times when its MUCH worse in greenspring vs upper park heights. I personally have security system and just try to be smart.

amother

Wed, Dec 30 2020, 11:36 am

amother [ Lemon ] wrote:

Regarding the first paragraph, I actually felt that way while living in New York. Perhaps that's why I felt much more out home with out of towners.

As far as the second paragraph, the political influence in NY actually drives me insane.

I'm sure that there will be times that I get annoyed with people who don't allow complaints. I am not a blind follower type. But I'll put up with it for the positives.

amother

Wed, Dec 30 2020, 11:40 am

amother [ Sienna ] wrote:

Two cousins of mine went to TA, and one is now in Toras Simcha. We'll see where we end up sending.

Other than the size of the schools, what's the difference between Bais Yaakov and Bnos Yisroel?

Thanks for the info about prices of daycares. $8K for 9-3:30 is really high for a preschool setting, but probably less than I paid for babysitting in NY. We'll do more research if we do decide to move there.

I figured that was the case with vouchers. If we were that low-income, we wouldn't be able to move.

amother

Wed, Dec 30 2020, 11:42 am

amother [ Lemon ] wrote:

We'll see about the restaurants. Again, not a reason not to move, and I'll decide for myself. It's not as if we're planning to eat out all the time.

I agree about the schools.

Did rabbonim in NY/NJ not put out guidelines re: covid? Not that anyone listened to them (though we did for the most part).

amother

Wed, Dec 30 2020, 11:50 am

Busy as a bee wrote:

Ok so as a fellow Baltimore person who 1. moved from lakewood and 2. is originally from NY I want to cover the items you talked about.

1. Alot of people do starter homes in the younger families moving here. Bancroft village, Heather ridge, and I know of alot of people doing condos to start until they find a house and neighborhood they like. How much do houses run in those neighborhoods? Are they in the city or county?

2. Yes there are def really "baltimory" people all over - that being said I really barely interact with them as a young family and when I see their messages I just ignore it. Yes my husband REFUSES to daven at the aguda cuz he can't handle the overstepping there but overall it doesnt affect my day to day life. Please, in lakewood there were plenty of overstepping the vaad of lakewood did for years before lakewood got too big.
What is the overstepping in the Agudah?

3. Food areas - I'm a huge foodie and find that I overall am happy with most of the food places. The new thai place is great. chef dans is amazing. We love serengeti and while def not as many options, there are options. I have family in cleveland and detriot and passaic and we leave them all behind.
In addition, I've had issues with taam thais food - called them up and they handled it so gracefully (mistakes in my order once). Chef dan once sent a pizza that the driver held upside down and the cheese all stook to the top of the box - messaged them and right away a refund.
Good to hear another perspective. Thanks.

4. Covid - I personally think the Vaad was really amazing. Yes I didnt follow everything they said TBH but overall I did and you know what, we have had anyone sick in my family.... My kids never had to quarintine yet and overall considering the circumstances I think they did a great job giving guidance in a hard time.

5. Paying drivers - I've never had to yet so don't know pricing but it's not easy that I def agree with. In normal times there's an MTA bus specifically for taking the boys to the yeshivas if your kids are old enough.
My kids are little.

6. I think the crime thing is funny cuz I've seen times when its MUCH worse in greenspring vs upper park heights. I personally have security system and just try to be smart.

What precautions do you take?

amother

Lemon

Wed, Dec 30 2020, 12:22 pm

BTW...people complain about the Agudah. But it's in pretty poor taste to do so if you have ever availed yourself of their services. Just about everyone in the community has used their keilim mikvah, for free. Plus, they are the only ones who take care of sheimos--people come and dump their stuff off (some of the schools do it, too, btw so even if you haven't done it personally you have benefited from it most likely), sometimes bags and bags of it, and volunteer members of the shul go through it painstakingly to separate garbage from actual sheimos and take care of it without charging a penny. I know some of the volunteers and you'd be surprised what a huge job it is. And sometimes there is moldy food and even dirty diapers mixed in. Not to mention the systems they have worked out to authenticate meshulachim so you don't have to worry about being scammed by collectors, getting the NWCP off the ground, being the first to open a Jewish library. All organized and run by volunteers members of the shul.. So many non members rely on the minyanim there when they are saying kaddish but they are accommodated their entire year without ever paying a penny in membership. Some of them people who said they'd never daven there but when push came to shove and they needed to, they had no problem availing themselves.

I could care less if people complain about restaurants or schools or stores but it is in extremely poor taste to complain about the Agudah. Those who do have no clue how much the community infrastructure has benefited from it, without them having to contribute a penny or minute of their own time. I have no patience for newcomers who come in and complain about the Agudah or make silly statements about how they will never step foot inside. How babyish.

Busy as a bee

Wed, Dec 30 2020, 12:29 pm

amother [ Lemon ] wrote:

I personally appreciate all the Agudah does and donate there every year. My point is just if you don't like how an organization does things, there are other options and dont go there. My husband has some personal feelings about the way the davenings and the shul itself is run so he wont daven there, rather drive across town to another shul instead. That's his opinion and that's ok. He doesnt go around bashing it, we still give them money and appreciate the other services they offer. I'm only saying that it's not like baltimore used to be with limited options for things